15 billion to private companies to retool and whatever. But then they sell us what they make. None of that goes back to the tax payers.
If you work for someone else in this country you are a joke it seems.
While I agree with your sentiment, ~2/3rds of it according to the article isn’t being given to them but being available in loans. So the article should say $5.5 given away, and $10 billion made avaliable to pay back.
Loans are costs too. It’s tying up capital that could be used elsewhere
It’s more like investment, especially if it saves jobs. It can be a win-win. Companies have it easier time switching to EV manufacturing, which helps those companies and the environment. Manufacturing jobs are saved, both giving a living to a lot of people and helping communities and saving on benefit payments.
Could of course backfire or go to shit but investments like this from states seem like a very wise move imo.
Take loan
Spend it on stock buybacks
Buy a senator or 50
Profit
I wouldn’t exactly be surprised if that happens but I’m not pessimistic enough to think it will hah. I’d imagine plenty of them will actually use the money for EV transition since that really is the direction things are going anyway.
It’s tying up capital that could be used elsewhere
I’m not sure that’s the case when you’re the government and can and do print money. Not every rule of finance applies to the entity that gives credibility to the currency in the first place. This is also why the concept of governmental debt is much less meaningful than the concept of individual debt.
The government is limited in monetary policy by inflation.
Of course, the Petrodollar doesn’t really have this problem, but it ends up exporting inflation around the world.
And yet when it comes time to talk about student loans suddenly that the government is broke.
Stopping climate change benefits everyone, including the taxpayers.
This isn’t going to put a dent in climate change. It just isn’t. Wake me up when we change our stance on Nuclear since that is the only thing that will bolster renewable energy, which is a stop gap.
Furthermore, if the US government actually cared about fighting climate change they would invest in public transportation across the country, making those EV, since they A. Go shorter distances and B. Can carry more people, and they would also tax the shit out of the fossil fuel industry and manufacturing sector for their wonton pollution. It’s called internalizing the externalities and it needed to happen 10 years ago. We’re so fucked.
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EV cars are meant to be powered with green energy, but you need a demand and a supply of that first or you’re just powering them with coal instead of oil.
Common myth. Coal makes up a small percentage of power in the US and Europe, and EVs powered by literally anything other than coal (including natural gas) are a net win for the climate over ICE vehicles.
For example, where I live, coal is 3% of the energy mix. Renewables (including hydro) are 42%, and nuclear is 9%.
What’s the other 46%?
38% natural gas and the rest “unspecified”, probably smaller energy generation projects that don’t fit neatly into other categories.
Edit: did some more research and “unspecified” means power imported from other states that didn’t document the source of the power.
It just isn’t.
OH SHIT, SOMEONE CALL THE SCIENTISTS, THIS DUDE ON THE INTERNET HAS PROVED ALL OF YOU WRONG
renewable energy, which is a stop gap
Shill detected.
Stopping climate change by…
Removing fossil fuels from the grid? Reducing methane leakage in natural gas transmission? Developing domestic nuclear energy?
Maybe reducing car-dependency to make more efficient use of land and reduce the excessive amounts of taxpayer money being dumped to subsidize suburban development? Reducing inefficient flights between close cities (LAX-SFO, BOS-JFK-DCA)? Building more efficient buildings?
How about taking advantage of the already insanely efficient supply chains in China that allow for the development of sub-10k EVs? Helping those companies launch in the US and bring their expertise with them to accelerate the EV transition like China has?
Nah, let’s just give some more money to a few big EV manufacturers, I’m sure that’ll fix everything.
More than one thing can happen at the same time.
I’m sorry for shattering your world-view like this.
You realize how much money is going towards EV subsidies? They’re extremely inefficient uses of money.
Not nearly enough. We need to be subsidizing them to the level we subsidize oil.
The only way to stop climate change is to drastically reduce the human population.
Ok, you first.
We pay at least twice. Isn’t that how it’s supposed to be?
(/S)
“oh it’s expensive to make electric vehicles so we have to upsell them at 50k+, even though we get government support”
I really want to go electric, but the milage just isn’t there yet for me, and add in the charging time and new maintenance routines of swapping out those batteries. I just haven’t done enough research.
I don’t think there’s anything bad with giving the manufacturers money to switch their entire production facilities to electric, I just hope the government actually understands what those funds are being used for, unlike the money they gave our ISPs for infrastructure upgrades that went to waste.
The shells may be similar or the same but inside it would be like asking an apple orchard to change all their trees to oranges, and these funds will help expedite that.
I get 300 mile range and can recharge from 20-80% in under a half hour (a road trip lunch break).
It’s getting there quickly!
Mileage seems fine to me. My gas car gets 260-280 maybe. Electric hits similar numbers.
Charge times are getting pretty low too. 20 minutes is becoming common to hear a new car doing 20-80%. That’s slower than gas but also I’ll only do that in a pinch. Most charging will be at home during the night.
The maintenance differences are a mixed bag though. I think a lot of EVs will be essentially disposed of once the batteries are showing age.
If the phone industry can reach us anything it is manufacturers will make it expensive to change or not make the batteries.
With all that said. Giving car companies money to help them mine rare metals in 3rd world countries, buy motors from China, assemble cars in Mexico and the US…idk how that makes financial sense.
And before anyone tells me the money is only for US plants…I’ll ask you to get real.
Man, I forget how shitty most peoples gas cars are sometimes. 260 miles from a full tank? That’s like 26mpg if you have a 10gallon tank, which is unlikely. My car is 15 years old and gets 40mpg, the hybrids in my household get 50+. How tf do you afford to drive getting mileage like that?
13 gallon but lots of city driving. Also a 2015 so not very old.
I afford it by working from home lol.
How often do you drive more than 100 miles away? People average 33 miles a day in the US and less than 1% of trips are over 100 miles. I would venture to guess almost never. Range is really not much of an issue for 99% of people. The only instances where charge time is an issue is those less than 1% of trips that are over 100 miles.
Maintenance is also not much of an issue. There is significantly less maintenance with an EV. For the battery, they generally hold their charge pretty damn well and most can go 300k miles before their full battery level degrades to 80% of the original range.
Not saying their are not issues because there absolutely are. But the issue with them is affordability and charging infrastructure reliability. At least in the US, we have a mediocre amount of fast charge stations but one of the main providers, Electrify America, has shit reliability. You would think VW, who was forced to build the Electrify America system, would actually want to make it profitable and also use it as PR showing that they have changed. But nope. They treat it like the red headed step child that they were forced to do and resent it. Fuck VW.
This right here. I had a phev that got 30 miles off the battery. If I worked a regular job that would be more than enough especially if I could trickle charge at work.
Maintenance you’re spot on and don’t forget to account for the intangibles like having to make that appointment for an oil change, etc and then having to either drop the car off or sit around while they do the work. Data coming from years of tesla, prius, etc is showing batteries lasting even longer and holding even more charge than the engineers predicted when designing and testing. I wouldn’t be surprised if we eventually see evs with 500k+ on the original battery and that’s not including some of the cells being repaired or swapped out.
As for charging. In most big cities there are chargers literally everywhere. I run my own livery and work uber, etc so I’m everywhere in my current state. I’m seeing apt complexes put in charging stations backed by Duke Power, I’m also seeing stores like Publix with free charging, simply plug and play versus having to activate it. Parking garages in Charlotte and Greensboro have them including at the airports, Greensboro also has at least one charging setup with a solar canopy for shade. WFU has a ton of free chargers around campus and nearby.
The charging infrastructure has a long way to go but we are miles ahead of where we were just 5 years ago. Those with a house or who can convince a hoa or complex can charge at home and always wake up to a full tank.
They’re working on improving range, it just isn’t there yet. Recharge overnight at home if you have a garage and it will likely never be a problem, in the vent you don’t have a place to charge slowly overnight or need a charge up on a trip then super chargers are being added all over the place daily, with government investment helping that as well. The maintenance routine is nothing, you need a new battery after nearly a decade, most people are getting a new car on that schedule, even if you plan to keep a car for decades you’ll have major repairs/replacements on a ice vehicle just as much if not more than electric.
Swapping ice to electric isn’t that difficult, ford even sells a crate electric motor and the tools/instructions to replace a gas engine with it in nearly any vehicle.
I fully agree that the government needs to set guidelines, controls, and a series of deep audits over several decades to ensure this money is being spent appropriately. Too often they just hand out cash to corps with no follow up to make sure it didn’t get spent on bonuses
My ice vehicle is nigh 2 decades old and besides wear parts my total investment on repairs is under $500. I’m still getting 30 mpg and although I’m not anti electric 15 years of no car payment is hard to beat.
How is that possible? Tires alone will be that cost. Oil changes over 20 years? Even if you only changed oil annually for 20 years for $20 thats $400.
Not that you should ditch your car. I have a 12 year old with similar performance.
I specifically excluded wear parts. At 300k miles I’ve replaced the tires about 4 times (they wear in the front but i move them to the back and they seem to last forever), the brakes & pads/drums & fluids twice although the second time was due to an error in installation on my part, belts once, headlamps once, spark plugs twice, and wiper blades bi-yearly. The alternator was my only non-wear repair and that came in around $300. Also note i do all my own work which i have no confidence for in an electric vehicle although i have to claim complete ignorance, some systems may be identical…
People really overstate the maintenance difference. It’s basically oil changes, which with synthetic oils are a 2-3 times per year thing depending on driving amounts. In electrics, you have a massive battery that’s going to dictate the value of the car at around the ten year mark, an ice car can be 7-10k, but electric is either 0 or pay 15k to have a car maybe worth that much or slightly more.
Are your tires and brake pads bald as fuck? Neither of those are cheap and have to be done every few years on ICE vehicles.
You are horribly underestimating battery lifespan. They are warrantied for 10 years. They average about 300k miles before dropping to 80% of their original charge. If you are fine with that, many are fine to go longer.
Tires wear the same on battery cars. Brakes are similar, though they were less due to regenerative braking, they also need to be bigger for the heavier weight.
Significantly less for brakes. That regenerative braking does the vast majority of the work unless you are slamming on the brakes often.
Brakes wear way way less on EVs. You basically never use the brakes. Yes, the EV is heavier, but the regen is strong enough to slow down a car in all but the hardest of braking circumstances.
There are also timing belts, engine seals, coolant flush and fills (there’s a debate on whether that is worth it), transmission fluid, oil filters, air filters, spark plugs, and the lead acid battery. None of those are really a thing on EVs except the battery, but it’s much smaller and cheaper.
What do you mean the range isn’t there yet? How often do you travel 300+ miles between a charge?
I would 2-3 times a year. And when I did it would be probably 3 charges in each direction, maybe 4 considering heat and a/c and several suitcases of weight. Enough that it wouldn’t be convenient, but that’s why we’ll keep an ICE van around for a while yet.
So you choose to inconvenience yourself 2-3 times a month because of something you only do 2-3 times a year? I get people who complain about range when they take road trips every month or live in very cold climates or have long commutes, but 2-3 times a year you can rent a car for the money you would save on gas and maintenance.
No idea what you’re talking about, but it’s our second vehicle. Primary is a Volt, so PHEV with the longest range. Most days we use no gas because I work from home and we only use the van a couple times a week when the kids need to be in different places at the same time.
Why not use the Volt for the long trips? It uses gas.
Every time I go home to see my family, I’d have to stop halfway and sit at a charger for a bit. That’s why I own a hybrid now since electric doesn’t meet my needs and EVs are still so damned expensive
Why don’t you just fly?
No airport in villages in the middle of nowhere my dude. Nearest airport I could get a flight into is an hour+ away and I’d have to drive at least 45 minutes to an airport small enough to fly into it. The only real feasible way to get there is drive since America refuses to build non-freight trains
Welp, sounds like you drive waaaaaaaaay more than the average. You live in the middle of the wilderness and frequently drive 500 miles each way. You’re an edge case so it’s gonna be a while before a solution is developed for you.
Fortunately, there’s few enough people in your position that if only the people who drive such an extraordinary amount use ICE vehicles, it will be a tiny contribution to climate change.
If your daily driving is <50 miles or so, a plug-in hybrid is a good option. That way you only burn gas on those long trips.
Charging needs a huge overhaul and standardization at a minimum. Being able to charge at home helps, but that’s 50% or less of people can do it. The big problem is travel, there’s way to many different apps, broken chargers, and not actually fast chargers. Especially outside Tesla’s super chargers.
We will always give money to our industries to make up for the lack of long term planning in our system. I certainly do not understand what concept of fucking justice that is related to.
I certainly do not understand what concept of fucking justice that is related to.
This concept of justice:
higher scores will be given to projects that are likely to retain collective bargaining agreements and/or those that have an existing high-quality, high-wage hourly production workforce, such as applicants that currently pay top quartile wages in their industry.
And that’s good. But what would be better for the planet would be building up a public transportation system so robust that cars are unnecessary outside of rural areas.
I was just listening to a Parenti lecture where he talked about an interaction he had with someone who had been in high up in East Germany. He basically asked, “why did you put out those crappy little two cylinder engine cars?” And the ex-officials response was essentially, “we didn’t want to put them into cars at all, we thought if we provided an adequate public transportation system, that people would be satisfied, but they weren’t so we had to do what we could.”
I agree with you fully, that public transport would be the ideal solution, far and away above electric vehicles, which just providing one for every household in the US would require such s massive amount of material extraction that it by itself will cause significant climate outcomes, but, we must find a way around the impulse for private personal transportation that exists within people, and I don’t know how to do so. Moving without the mass of people could lead to rejection and reactionary movements. Moving with the mass will lead to climate destruction. How do we work with the masses to come to a compromise that allows the support of the masses, while reducing the number of private vehicles to nearly zero?
Maybe as a miniscule offset to the ungodly sums still being spent to prop up the fossil fuel industry.
neoliberalism in a nutshell
I was hoping for a cash for clunkers 2.0
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oh no, won’t someone think of the… checks notes… classic car enthusiasts?
I know you’re being sarcastic but the cash for clunkers, while it worked pretty well, worked a little too well. Since that program it got harder to find cheap, old vehicles. Sure, they were inefficient, but they were cheap. Cheap cars don’t seem to exist much anymore.
Removing inefficient cars from the roads was literally the point of the program. You’re saying the program worked exactly as intended
Not so fun for those relying for cheap cars for their transportation but there’s bad sides to everything.
I get it, but old cars are also much less efficient even than modern ICE cars, so if the goal is to facilitate a transition into EVs and hybrids it might make some sense. The obvious issue with that is that there is also an environmental cost to making new cars to replace all the old cars, and I personally don’t know how that pencils out compared to keeping people in older, inefficient cars, even if they have a pretty limited lifespan anyway…
I guess I’m kind of torn on it. Personally I’d love to move away form my 2014 BMW which makes about 18mpg on average.
First the charging infrastructure needs to be better
It’s well on its way. And most people charge at home day to day.
That’s a great way to do it, but that solution excludes a lot of people renting or in condo HOAs that don’t have easy access to overnight charge points in their complex’s or city’s lots. Hopefully those missing pieces are addressed soon so EVs feel like an option to everyone driving an ICE car, not just homeowners with garages.
They should start fining VW for their failure to maintain Electrify America.
That would be amazing
Cash for Clunkers impacted the used car market for well over a decade.
Wasn’t that part of the expectation?
Hell I’ll take a clunker to e-clunker conversion kit plan.
Is that something that’s even remotely viable? I mean I’m sure it’s technically possible but there’s way more to it than just an engine swap, I’m not sure it would be any cheaper than just building a new car.
I mean poor folk aren’t getting any cheap options anytime soon, new or used. It’d be nice to have the option for a $7k-9k conversion, but with a decent rebate to make it viable, along with the ability to pay over time. And EV conversions seems to have gone down in cost than when I last looked, if we can get it down even more heck yeah!
New EVs in China are going for 10k, so it’s clearly possible…
I would love to see that, if nothing else than to give classic cars new life as EVs or hybrids. Probably not something for purist-type collectors who want to keep things as stock as possible, but there are so many absolutely iconic old cars that I would love to continue to see kept alive.
“Strong and just”? You’re not going to win over fascists by using their keywords. Maybe tone it down a little for those of us who still recall “Operation Shock and Awe” and the “War on drugs” and “The PATRIOT Act” and all the associated “collateral damage”.
It just makes me think there’s something hidden in there of which we should all be very suspicious, even if there might not be.
Note: I welcome less environmental damage and reskilling workers into sustainable energy industries and products. I hope this bill isn’t the result of industry lobbying by EV manufacturers, but I note the lack of environmental goals contrasts with the large amounts of money being put into industry grants and loans.
“Strong and just”? You’re not going to win over fascists by using their keywords.
LMAO
Should be fining the fucking companies instead of cuddling them with more money. “Oh, you’ve been constantly fighting this thing I want you to do, here’s some money so maaaaaaaaaayyyyybe you’ll do it now, pretty please?”
15B is a drop in the bucket. Throwing money at things doesn’t solve problems. Especially that small an amount. Only better policy decisions solve problems.
Isn’t support for EV transition a policy decision…?
A policy decision would be to mandate that no new cars use combustion by the end of the decade and for the government to use its regulatory powers to approve electrical grid infrastructure project, approve new nuclear plants asap, and incentivize the creation of battery recycling businesses, such as through making alternative energy companies tax free entities instead of mega churches.
I’m sorry, English isn’t my first language but what does policy decision actually mean? From what I understand it both are policy decisions, but I might not understand the proper meaning of the term.
Policies typically are ongoing. A one-time distribution is an action. It could be a policy to provide distributions of money on a cadence, however I don’t feel that would be as good of a policy as one that doesn’t cost anything directly and enables companies to proceed at something good for society expediently.
I was thinking of “support EV transition” as a big scale policy that this is a part of. But I see what you mean
While Congress is perpetually locked down by Republicans from doing any real legitimate progressive legislation, this seems like the most Biden can do. And I think it could be argued it’s not terrible considering how absolutely fucking immovable our entire political system is for the past 3 decades.
Having the feds $15.5 billion on EVs is a waste unless you nationalize the railroads.
I really don’t want an electric car.
Edit: I really didn’t expect such a response to my comment or I would have elaborated. Primary factor is cost, cost of replaceing the battery and initial cost of the vehicle purchase.
I do not have money to buy a new vehicle and there is no way I’m going to buy a used electric vehicle. A used electric vehicle will probably Also need a need battery. Until longevity can be proven I’m going to take that gamble.
Also repairability is another very big factor in not getting an electric vehicle for me. I am going to be buying a used car I don’t think I will ever buy a new car even if I had the money and a used electric vehicle is not in the cards until they can prove longevity and you can’t do that with a lithium ion battery.
In addition the electronic parts including the battery use rare, precious metals that are becoming increasingly rare. We don’t even have a way to recycle those batteries as far as I am aware. I’m not saying we don’t need a better alternative, but, I don’t think that’s it.
And that’s okay! There are plenty of ways to use climate-friendly means of transportation if your area has the infrastructure for it. If it doesn’t, buying/utilizing used cars with good gas mileage and adjusting how much you drive, supporting climate-friendly legislation, and raising awareness are the best things you can do until biking/walking/etc. is more accessible for you - or until you can move to a high-density area with those options, if that’s the goal.
Electric cars are a great step forward, but currently lack the efficiency and affordability of ICE vehicles. Plus, they ultimately serve as a means to maintain the stability of the Auto industry in an increasingly environmentally-conscious society.
That’s a very big issue, cost, I can’t afford to buy any new car and there’s no way I’m buying a used electric. Cost of battery replacement and repairability is another huge factor.
I just don’t understand what’s so green about electric cars? Lithium mining plus everything else associated with the manufacturing process doesn’t seem too green to me.
https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/electric-vehicle-myths#Myth2
While I agree with the sentiment that EVs aren’t the most efficient alternative in terms of lowering carbon footprint, they are definitely better than ICE vehicles for consumer use. They are even more so when you have an electrical grid running off of solar, wind, and water.
I always tell people the greenest solution when it comes to cars is to just not buy a new one. Use whatever you have until it can’t be used. Then buy a EV, preferably used but sometimes you need new due to availability or mileage.
I’m a contractor and have been working out of a 2 door Jeep for the past 8 years and it’s time to buy a truck. I’d be down for an F150 Lightning, but I’m not about to try to afford $50k (plus dealer markups) when I can get a decent used long bed rig for about $30k that already has a utility bed. The added weight of a utility bed plus tools and materials will destroy that mileage estimate, so if I have jobs that are a decent ways away, I don’t have time to sit for 30-60min to charge. Until range gets better and I can get something more conducive to my job, I’m kinda stuck. I’d take a van, but we get snowy winters and all the 4x4 vans are ridiculously expensive because of the van life crowd, and I sure as hell am not putting on chains unless it’s R3.
The F-150 lightning pisses me off. They released it for $40k but it sold really well so they raised the prices several times.
It’s a great truck but they want to price it out of being sellable. $40k is right on par with a brand new f-150.
I will say, the mileage isn’t destroyed by the utility bed. I don’t own one but I have spoken to owners. I drove PA to Kentucky on my Niro EV and met someone hauling farming equipment in OH. They were going from FL to Illinois. Said he still gets close to the 300 mile range while hauling so it’s a bit of a hit, but not as much as people think.
That being said, the people who drive a lot every day are the toughest sells and for good reason. People who drive a bit in the city think they drive more than they do. But realistically I think everyone needs to actually check how many miles they drive a week and not just assume how much they drive.
EV’s aren’t ready for a lot of driving jobs but are getting there. And charging is getting better too. My trip to KY had an average charging stop of 10 minutes. Compared to a gas station that’s filling up and running in for a restroom break. It depends on whats in your area but that tech is around
We get the majority of our lithium from an area that has zero life and has had no recorded rainfall. Their lifetime CO2 emissions compared to an ICE vehicle is significantly lower even using the most polluting power source. There is just no comparison.
They aren’t really green per se, it’s just that gasoline powered cars are so much worse.
Better to reduce or eliminate driving if you can.
Could Intrest you in an Ebike?
E scooters too, look like a ton of fun
I can understand the sentiment. It might help to explain why, though.
I prefer electric bikes.
I’d really like to try out some E-bikes. There are so many models these days, and I already enjoy cycling. Unfortunately I think the potholes all over my city might disagree with any decision to buy one.
They make some pretty rugged fat-tires nowadays. I think they’re kind of overkill for most people but if you live in a place with poor infrastructure it could be useful.
You are right I updated my comment as I mentioned in the update I really didn’t expect to have that kind of a response so I didn’t bother putting more work into it and I should have.
Great thoughts on the situation!
Thank you, that’s very kind
Same here! My main issues/concerns are due to weather and the lack of a place to charge up. Already this year we’ve seen how they don’t do well in extreme cold or heat. And my area also had significant storms recently so flooding, no power, etc. And I live in an area will large hills (look like mountains, but not quite) and my friends with electric cars complain about it quite a bit. It drains the battery and struggles on some inclines.
The best I’ve seen so far is a Lexus hybrid sedan a friend has. Handles the terrain well, charges as you drive, doesn’t need plugged in at all.
I feel like they need to have more going for them until we can all switch.
Same concerns. Also cost, cost to replace the battery, cost for the car and repairability.
I really don’t want an electric car.
Welcome to the wonderful world of buses!
Electric buses in London are bloody amazing! Love them! Trains are better though…
Those are increasingly electric too. He might not be happy with that either hah
Based.
Then buy a hydrogen powered one?
Or possibly look into alternative forms of transportation.
I would drive a hydrogen powered one, but, unfortunately there’s no place to fill it.
You said that a already
