Israel was taken by surprise by the most ambitious operation Hamas has ever launched from Gaza.
The scale of what's been happening is unprecedented. Hamas breached the wire that separates Gaza from Israel in multiple places in the most serious cross-border attack Israel has faced in more than a generation.
It came a day after the 50th anniversary of the surprise attack by Egypt and Syria in 1973 that started a major Middle East war. The significance of the date will not have been lost on the Hamas leadership.
Israel's Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu says his country is at war and will exact a heavy price from its enemies.
Videos and photos of dead Israelis, civilians as well as soldiers, are all over social media.
I mean, Israel kind of threw the first stone and built the first wall
Their settlers have been entering the Al Aqsa Mosque en masse for the past couple weeks, trying to pray, which even the Israeli government says they're not supposed to do.
They tried to pray at a mosque? Better shoot up a music festival
They came for the civilians, they shot families in their homes, literal children and babies. No stone provoked this.
The Israeli settlers did this first in the forties when they invaded and colonized Palestine, indiscriminate violence was their M.O., so yes the first stone was thrown two generations ago. Not excusing the violence today, but it is not unexpected nor unprecedented by either side of this conflict.
That area has been under conflict for 1,000s of years claiming that it's the Palestinians land is very short sided.
The Bible say so 🤷♂️
how many times has palestine been offered land for peace? Many - In 1948, 1967 and even later there were offers which mentioned connecting palestine and gaza. all the times, palestinians refused it.
Hence why I am under the impression that they are more responsible for this conflict.
This is like somebody moving into your home and then you accept a couple of the bedrooms and one of the bathrooms, believing it to be an appropriate compromise.
You have a pizza.
I take 3/4 of it onto my plate, without asking, as you look on in horror.
I suggest we "compromise" and split it 50/50. After all, your grandad took my grandad's pizza when they were both kids. You owe me.
Someone please explain to me how this is different
To speak less in analogies and just cite history, Palestine was ruled by the Ottoman Empire from the 16th century until 1917. After their defeat in WWI, Britain took control of the region under the British Mandate for Palestine, basically controlling all of the region west of the River Jordan. Up until 1947, approximately 420,000 Jews immigrated to the region where the population was about 600k Jews to 1.2M Arabs in Palestine.
In 1948, Britain left which meant an opportunity for a coalition of Arab states to attempt to take back “what was theirs” 31 years ago. The Jews were able to defend the region and have since been encroaching further and further outside of that area they defended previously.
Before all of this “modern” history, from the 7th century to the 16th, the region was controlled by Islamic states and Christian crusaders (who took the land for themselves, not for the Jews, and even killed a lot of Jews — think hundreds of thousands, if not more — during their occupation).
We can continue to go back in history to Roman rule, Egyptian rule, etc. but how far back in time are we willing to go to, going back to your analogy, determine how much of the pizza you should be entitled to? What of the rest of the world? It’s a good question and I obviously don’t have the answer but I’m also trying to understand as best as I’m able to.
With that being said, none of that history warrants the atrocities being committed by either side. If the two sides could co-exist in a United Israel-Palestine state, that would be the ideal resolution in my mind. Unfortunately, due to the overwhelming religious zeal on one side and a superiority complex on the other, that’s just a pipe dream.
Nothing to add or contribute here just wanted to say thanks for the very thoughtful response.
I think you hit the nail on the head with the question of how far we should go back to work out how the "pizza" should be shared. I don't think there is an answer to that. If you go too far back it's ludicrous and if you think too short term it's totally unfair.
Agree about the solution. Unfortunately it seems like people on both sides want innocents to die instead 🤷♂️
Not really. It’s definitely a bit tough to judge who did the dessert belong to. But historically, there was a point in time when jews were living in that area.
Historically, there was a point in time, is such a slippery slope. We could play that geography game all day.
That's his point claiming it belongs to one group or another over simplifies what's happened in that region.
The pie is big enough, but someone takes another slice every year.
But that time you're talking about all this land was recognized as Palestine. Prior to 1948 no government or country in the planet recognized any Israeli claim to this land.
It has been recognized as palestine for a logn long time (since rome), though state was never present. Palestine as a state never existed and thoughts about creating a palestinian state began after Ww2
I had no idea. Why wouldn’t they take the offers
Thats like asking why Ukrainian wont just accecpt Russians offer for peace. They have their homeland stolen, and then should be happy with a little bit of it after the fact?
I mean that’s a solid point
This is Lemmy, there are quite a lot of American teens who don't know why Ukraine shouldn't do exactly as you say.
They never accepted because it was thier fertile crop land that was being taken from them. It failed to be mentioned that these offers were by the British. The Jews themselves also declined the first to offers.
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You're a fucking idiot.
Imagine having 100% of your cropland, 40% of your holy sites and 50% of your homes given to another group because of the mis conception that you are nomadic.
You are also aware that the Jews delined the first 2 offers as well until they were given 80% of the land, right?
Jewish subjects under the British mandate rebelled against the British government and the Nazi-aligned muftis. This, after decades of oppression against the Jews of the colony; finally, they declared their independence.
A lot of people are excusing, and in many cases celebrating the violence today. They love to see Jews die. This is nothing new.
No one is saying Jews need to or should die. The argument is larger than that. Israel has don’t some fucking horrible things to Palestinians. Palestine rejected land deals and peace. It’s horrible to see what’s happening. No one should be praising Hamas,
but people do praise Hamas. People celebrate when Jews die.
Here's a few tweets and retweets by Mia Khalifa (via Nitter):
https://nitter.net/miakhalifa/status/1710663220619313397#m
https://nitter.net/farzndeimam/status/1710532280291049891#m
https://nitter.net/NadiSaadeh/status/1710628721151942987#m
https://nitter.net/miakhalifa/status/1710641662068670834#m
https://nitter.net/miakhalifa/status/1710722638975279537#m
And, while we're at it:
https://www.instagram.com/p/CyG1HdsA5I9/
https://www.instagram.com/p/CpIyIEPO-OI/
So yeah, some people are saying Jews should die. Should I bring up the Hamas charter?
Now do apartheid South Africa. Easy to see who the baddies are.
It belonged to the British before WW2. After the war, where Israel was created after 6,000,000 Jewish people (among other "undesirable" groups, such as gay people) were summarily executed by the nazis, it fell under immediately attack from all of its neighbors in 1947. Two years after six million were executed.
The Arab League members Egypt, Transjordan, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq refused to accept the UN partition plan and proclaimed the right of self-determination for the Arabs across the whole of Palestine. The Arab states marched their forces into what had, until the previous day, been the British Mandate for Palestine, starting the first Arab–Israeli War. After an initial loss of territory by the Jewish state, the tide turned in the Israelis' favour and they pushed the Arab armies back beyond the borders of the proposed Arab state
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Israel
While it doesn't excuse brutal repression, I don't think they are ever going to back down. Any time they do, everyone seems to execute all of them in pogroms.
In the Bible the Jews took over Canaan. Sorry but the Jews own history says the cannaanites were there first.
Everyone choosing a side between Palestine and Israel, but I'm going to take the mega unpopular stance of fuck both these people. Fuck the fundamentalist followers of Abraham, no matter what branch.
They would visit great violence on you in the name of their god if they had the chance. They are murderously self-righteous.
Yeah I'm with you here.
Seems so strange that two sects of the same religion would commit horrid acts of violence against each other, against children, all because at some point some dude may have said some different shit than some other dude at a place like 60 miles away.
I also don't get the side picking. This attack was violent and horrible, but does that wipe away the decades of horrible shit Isreal has done? Seems like two toxic groups are doing toxic shit at each other.
I only feel sorry for the innocent people caught in the cross fire.
They are too similar, so they must go out of the way to villainize and demonize the "other" lest people not feel like they are 100% in the right. Something similar to you but not you might make the regulars of society realize the invisible lines and honestly they don't really want to think about it anyways. Us vs them and the more alike the mora adamant the existence of differences.
Enlightened centrist
Which side should you support? Maybe the only side actually facing genocide.
Israel is kettling Palestine. Palestine has no option but to fight back against israels apartheid.Both sides say they want to eradicate the other but only Israel is actually doing genocide.
I get it. if I was born in Palestine I'd fight too. But if I went to Palestine in the body I currently inhabit, I'd be raped and stoned in the streets for the way I dress.
I've seen videos of children of both cultures calmly telling tourists they should die, that god will kill them, that the children themselves would kill them if they could. The Israeli children are dressed nicer, but the raw hatred is the same. Both cultures suckle their children on self-righteousness. On stories of being 'gods chosen'. If their cultures grow and succeed they wont care that you helped, they'll use their power to subjugate you to their god all the same. Because they're 'special'
You keep talking about rhetoric. Now do reality. Who is being exterminated?
Hint it's not the Jews this time.
Theyre both exterminating each other, and the one with the most power is doing better at it. If Palestine suddenly had more power, they would be doing better at it. HAMAS has as much chance of establishing a peaceful secular democracy as ISIS
No they're not that's the point. Palestine cannot destroy Israel. You act like both sides have the ability to wipe each other out.
Palestine can't destroy Israel, but there are quite a few like minded governments surrounding the country that have attempted that before.
Even specific to this invasion, hamas is suspected to be receiving considerable backing from another country to destabilize Israel or any other myriad reasons. This conflict isn't happening in an isolated bubble with just two sides.
and Israel has had a few years to create a more stable solution.
I would suggest continuing to support illegal settlements in Palestinian land is not conducive.
That's too bad
People forget only one side has access to nuclear weapons on top of a very modern military arsenal.
And? If I blow up somebody's house and family with a $1,000,000 missile while they blow up mine with $150 worth of explosives, does that make one side more right?
No, both side are cooking in hatred. The bigger question isn't "who has the better ability to kill the other side" but rather "who has the better ability to break the cycle, and what can they do towards such means"
The thing is, they were objectively Palestinian homes that were getting blown up and literally stolen right out from under them. It's not "trading blows," it's "this is our land now because God said so, and we have the most high tech weapons on the planet (thanks US) to enforce it.
And apparently they immediately "forgot" what they vowed never to.
To suggest the cost of the armament isn't going to be in any way proportionate to it's capacity for destruction is silly.
They're absolutely not "both exterminating each other". Please do yourself a favor and find some (accurate) death count numbers for every single clash between Israel and Palestine, AT THE VERY LEAST since they began building settlements on Palestinian land.
Every single time, it is the opposite of proportional response. They kill 100x-1000x more. They are slaughtering several orders of magnitude more (and we'll just see it again in the coming days/weeks). The majority of Israelis that have died in these conflicts are IDF. They are soldiers.
On the other hand, Israel TARGETS civilians (including people clearly marked as civilian medics and the press) and fucking children in their "response".
Palestinians could never actually put up an even, proportional battle (for example, Ukraine and Russia seems at least relatively proportionate). What's happening in Israel isn't a battle or a war, it's genocide.
Has your country been attacked / been in any wars?
I assure you no one is trying to do 'proportional' damage. Thats not how anything works. Someone attacks you, you try to crush them.
All the same I wish the US would stop subsidizing Israel because they suck too. They might not do so well against Palestine then.
How do you not see Isreal as having been on a decades-long attack? Seriously, how does that happen?
Same for Israel
Same for Israel … establishing a peaceful secular democracy? I agree. And I wish the US would stop subsidizing their madness, but our religious fundamentalists (who have too much power) think they need their religious fundamentalists to be located in Israel for 'god' to return to earth.
Religion is a blight on the planet.
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I wear clothes that show my arms and legs below the knee, and I like to be able to go outside at night. Audacious I know, for me to want the same freedoms as men. Do you need sources for the fact that I can't do this in Palestine? Do you need sources for the fact that when Palestine started to see more beach tourism, HAMAS swooped in to crackdown on women on the beach?
Im not silly enough to think that if these abrahamic religions spread that I will be spared.
You're right. Palestine are victims now. If Israel stopped being funded by the west, Israel would be the victims next. You disagree?
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Bro saying Hamas doesn't have a 'perfect track record' is the biggest understatement. They push towards fundamentalism every chance they get and rose to power through violence.
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Maybe the only side actually facing genocide.
For better or worse (probably worse though) the British gave Israel to the jews because they were also facing genocide. So it's not quite as clear cut as you'd like it to be.
Calling this a religious war completely misses the socioeconomic context. Palestine is extremely poor, but they've also been systematically oppressed, had their homes stolen from them, had their rights ripped away, and are treated as basically subhuman.
Religion is the power that's organizing revolutionaries, but it's not the power that's creating revolutionaries.
I think calling it a socioeconomic war strips away all the context of the last 100ish years. These groups are fighting over who gets Jerusalem, because they believe it's holy. The socioeconomic conditions in Palestine are the result of a long holy war that they are losing. Tell me I'm wrong.
GB and the allies said, hey we'll put you here in Israel since 2000 years ago the Pharaohs made you slaves. Don't mind the people living here, they'll just move. They did the same thing with India and Pakistan. I wonder how the animosity between these groups started?
While Britain did make the matters worse but we must not forget that Hindus and Muslims have been at war with each other for a millennium now.
Same for Jews and Muslims.
People also want to indulge in political correctness and give free pass to Islamic scriptures which promotes hatred against Jews and Polytheists (Hindus).
That's why you'll find Muslims in Israel and India living largely peacefully but Hindus in Pakistan and Jews in Palestine continue to face atrocities.
In fact Hindus don't even have freedom of religion in India as many of our sacred Hindu sites were destroyed by Islamic invaders and mosques were built upon them.
Today's conflict between India and Pakistan is basically Hindus in conflict with ex-Hindus who converted to Islam to escape from Jizya (Islamic tax) and other forms of atrocities.
Another thing that makes India unique is that it has somehow retained some bits of it's culture even after the repeated Islamic invasions, that's not the case with other 50 odd Islamic countries. Spain might be the only other exception.
So, these are centuries old conflicts which Britishers exploited well.
Hindus in Pakistan
Lol no. They keep close relations with the army for protection because they're such a small minority. Meanwhile muslims in India face the stupidity of the BJP and muslims in Israel face the wrath of whosoever turn it is to go raid Al Aqsa again.
Also it wasn't Britain's idea to split the country. That was a stance of the Muslims. Britain did exploit the tensions between them to prevent them from rebelling against the British Raj. Then they did a 180 when they no longer had a need to keep India under brutal occupation.
All in all Pakistan and India came out far far better than Israel and Palestine.
Hindus in conflict with ex-Hindus Straight outta r/Chodi lmaooooo
lol you do realise that every pakistani was once a hindu? like literally some Pakistanis have hindu surnames! Pakistanis have hindu surnames like Choudhary, Rajput and Army Cheif also has a Hindu surname "Bajwa".
The only reason why Pakistanis are Muslims is because their Hindu ancestors surrendered, and couldn't pay jizya to invading Turks/Arabs.
lol you do realise that every pakistani was once a hindu?
Punjabis and SIndhis sure, probably not Balochis or Pashtuns.
Also you're exclaiming this like it was a bad thing and people actually regretted converting. Trading a shitty caste system for not paying tax is a win-win.
Like I said, something straight outta r/Chodi lol.
Terrorism is not the means to combat this. Murdering and kidnapping civilians is never excusable.
There is zero historical evidence outside the Bible for the enslavement of Jewish people. The Egyptian wrote down everything and there are no mentions of Jewish slaves and certainly no mention of locust, frogs, the Nile turning to blood, or the mass slaughter of children in the middle of the night.
You can't say that, it's "impolite", but it's true.
Getting down voted but this is factual.
Egyptian slaves were, for the most part, from Africa.
This whole myth comes from a debunked script from the first century CE called Antiquities of the Jews.
Egypt never took slaves from Canaan, the historic site of proto-jews.
Is there going to be another war or should this just be considered a small scale attack?
Bibi's an authoritarian with a strong desire to create a sort of ethnostate. He also needs the media to cover something other than his corruption and his removal of the judiciary's independence from his regime.
So, I expect this to be extremely ugly and to leave Palestine and her people worse off than ever before.
A major issue is that there isn't even a Palestinian Authority with which to negotiate anymore. And, Hamas is happy to let Palestine and Palestinians suffer to the last person so long as it means they get to shoot at just one more Israeli. It will go on until Israel wants to stop, which under the current government may be never.
until Israel wants to stop
Excuse me? And how will Israel stop this exactly?
hurr durr lift the blockade, remove the wall
And you think Hamas will disband immediately? No, they will launch an all out attack again, because one of their stated holy goals is to murder as many Israelis as possible. The blockade keeps Israelis alive, and your armchair suggestions are stupid.
Maybe stop sniping kids from the wall or stop stealing land
I punch a dog. The dog bites me. I put the dog in a cage. The dog scratches me. I beat the ever loving shit out of the dog. The dog bites me. I torture the dog and then go to the UN and cry that the dog bit me. The UN looks the other way as I attempt to beat the dog to death.
And how will Israel stop this exactly?
Hire a necromancer, reanimate Rabin.
No, Israel has declared war. This is a BFD. A couple hundred dead, 1500 injured, Hamas is going door to door executing people. 2000 rockets fired into Israel. They've captured territory. They've captured the general of the Israeli defence force. This isn't some border skirmish like we have heard about for a couple of decades, this was a very competent full scale attack.
Israel doesn't fuck around. Even if you don't agree with them, they're very militarily capable. Israel is about to turn Gaza into rubble in under a week. In the 6 day war, several Arab countries formed a coalition and attacked Israel, and got so thoroughly buttspanked they haven't done it since. Within 6 days they conquered all the way to the current Jordanian border, the Golan Heights from Syria, and the entirety of Sinai, which they returned as a gesture. Gaza is about to get glassed.
So, we expect 10,000 Palestinians dead by the end of Israel's retaliation? 100,000? More?
I have no fucking idea man. I just know that Israel doesn't fuck around. Whatever they do, it will be decisive and effective.
Genocide. Anticipate genocide as Israel uses this opportunity to justify eradicating the Palestinians. Never mind that everyone was warned that this would happen if they continued to bulldoze houses during Ramadan.
Israel is unlikely to do that, as the international uproar would likely cause them to lose American support
The 10,000-100,000 dead is more likely, shameful as that itself is.
It is with and because of American support that Israel has been able to do what it's done for the past decades.
I'm glad Israel has US support so that the attacks against it are minimally effective. Materiel support does not shape Israel's governing policies
Just pulling numbers out of my ass, but I would not be surprised if the eventual total was in the tens of thousands, and also if it takes 20 years for the true total to be known
I bet it's more than 20:1.
Gaza War in 2014. Left is Israeli casualties. Of course, Hamas started that one as well. Can't imagine what will happen now.
I mean Israel already declared a state of war. Yeah this is not a small scale attack, and is actually the first time Hamas actually attacked Israel with foot soldiers.
Naw just more scratching and clawing from a desperate animal being slowly choked to death and driven into the sea.
More bombing and annexing to be expected.
Right, this was never a “war”, just atrocities and genocide.
If it's a genocide then they're not doing a very good job considering that Gaza has an annual population growth of 3%.
It turns out when your sequestered into a small space, and concentrated together with the much stronger power controlling both the supply of food, and even your electricity, you sometimes have very little else to do.
We live in a shit situation so let's make babies!!!
Babies: I didn't sign up for this shit.
Goddamn humans are stupid.
another war
did the last one ever stop?
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If I were Mossad I'd be ashamed right now. How the fuck did they miss this? The FBI missed 12(?) 9/11 hijackers and it was the fuck up of a lifetime. Mossad missed an ENTIRE MILITARY OPERATION. Wtf?
Worse even. Mossad notified FBI about the pending attack.
Missed probably organized this like they did the several other before.
"Blindsides" give me a break. You are telling me one of the most intelligence heavy militaries in the world couldn't possibly have seen this coming? Israel let this happen to justify wiping out hamas for good.
They were specifically warned by Egypt that something big was about to happen.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
Other videos of armed men from Hamas hauling soldiers and civilians into captivity in Gaza have enraged and alarmed Israelis.
Israelis and Palestinians have been focusing on the West Bank, the territory between Jerusalem and the Jordanian border that Israel has occupied since 1967, where there has been almost continuous confrontation and violence throughout the year.
Armed Palestinians, especially those operating out of the West Bank towns of Jenin and Nablus, have attacked Israeli soldiers and Jewish settlers.
Extreme religious nationalists inside Israel's right-wing government have repeated their claim that the occupied territories, in their entirety, are Jewish land.
During the last week, some Jews have prayed inside the Aqsa Mosque compound, the third holiest place for Muslims after Mecca and Medina in Saudi Arabia.
At the heart of the trouble is the intractable and unresolved century-long conflict between Arabs and Jews for control of the land between the Mediterranean Sea and the river Jordan.
The original article contains 732 words, the summary contains 155 words. Saved 79%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!
Why can't their stupidassed god stop the attacks like they said he would?
Which side's god are you talking about?
Exactly
I keep popping into these threads just to check, and not one of those "private property is theft you can't own land" people that are so prevalent in the rest of lemmy's threads has brought this up yet. Seemingly, they do in fact think that either israel or palestine can claim "true" ownership of said land, due to this or that reason.
Tangentially related at best I know, I just find that pretty interesting.
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I genuinely believe Hamas got through because the Israeli military got lazy and complacent.
I think it's an issue with this generation. They were caught with their pants down, literally.
Well, they attacked on Simchat Torah (and Shabbat). Simchat Torah is one of our relatively few Happy holidays, and it's a day where Jews are not supposed to do any work, use fire, use electricity, etc. but are in fact supposed to be celebrating in synagogue.
This is not the first time they've attacked on a Jewish holy day. It's entirely intentional.
It’s entirely intentional
I mean of course it is. Anyone involved in a war would choose to time their attacks at the time they think it's going to be most effective; it would be silly to suggest otherwise.
It's certainly sad that civilians keep dying in this, but when one side is arguably committing a genocide against the other, and not-even-arguably is an apartheid state subjugating the other side, it's very hard to side with the apartheiders.
lol what?
"Genocide" is really hard to argue when their population keeps going up and most of the people being killed are active enemy combattants who target civilians.
"Apartheid" is hard to argue for a totally egalitarian state on the basis that it has borders. Oh no! The US is engaged in Apartheid with Mexico! The Apartheid lie is very easy to argue against, because there's no basis for it.
I mean, letting your guard down on a holy day isn't really an excuse.
This is not the first time they’ve attacked on a Jewish holy day. It’s entirely intentional.
Then… they should've been better prepared for this? I don't get your point.
Yeah, they should have, and to some extent they were. I don't think they "let their guard down," but I'm not in the IDF, I don't know how many people take the day off on shabbat or on simchat torah, I'm just saying that this was very intentional timing. It is, to the day, the 50 year anniversary of the Yom Kippur war.
Well, not literally.
