Fuck around and find out, as they say
I love this for them.
Apparently both died and he got arrested and imprisoned.
https://www-alanyagazetesi-com-tr.translate.goog/alanya-da-ukraynali-sahis-silahli-gaspcilari-ezerek-oldurdu-1649?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=enHopefully he’s out soon.
It’s sad that defending yourself and your property from robbers is often vilified in the west. There is a 0% chance the police were going to find and return his property.
Most countries require an appropriate level of force for self defense. Killing someone for stealing your money, especially after the fact when they’re already running, is usually not part of that. And neither is Turkey part of “The West”. Erdogan made damn sure of that not going to happen any time soon.
Chasing someone who just robbed is an appropriate response. The article indicates the robbers then escalated the threat by firing a sidearm at the robbed. The robbed responded with an equal level of force.
He didn’t just chase them, he rammed into them and into a wall or something, consequently killing them. And no, the article doesn’t state that he was shot during the pursuit. It says that he was following the suspect who shot him.
The state has a monopoly on violence for a reason. Imho. this wasn’t self defense, this was vigilantism and killing two people over money is a break with civilization.
You could argue that it was an excessive force during self defense. But vigilantism it was not.
You have to be entitled to think that 36000 euros is something you just shrug over.
In Germany this would definitely have been self-defence. Whether it was excessive self-defence would be up to the courts but 36k are a lot of money and the amount of force, well, it was the only suitable avenue he had available, doubly so because he got shot at (meaning that he can’t be expected to catch up and bump them from the side or something). I would estimate that a German court would acquit him. Also for that whole reasoning to even start to apply he must not have been confused, scared, or startled that is there’s huge allowances for affect.
But then, OTOH, Germany probably has the most hardcore self-defence laws in the world. You can literally deck someone in cold blood when being insulted (massively and incessantly) and walk free.
Which dollar amount precisely do you place on a human life? Or to put that differently, at which dollar amount is suspected theft punishable by death?
I’m not sure, but did he have any other reasonable way of recovering his €36,000 they stole from him while threatening his life? The police certainly weren’t going to find it.
You may hypothesize all you like about whether or not the money would have been recovered, but the fact remains that two people were killed. The value of a human life is in my opinion more than €18,000 and I’m very sorry to hear that you disagree.
Then they shouldn’t have put that price on their own life.
They didn’t put a price on their own lives, because manslaughter is illegal in Turkey as it is in most places as a disproportionate use of force, nor is it a case of self-defense. There are punishments for theft, and I’m not personally interested in advocating for capital punishment or vigilantism.
the fact remains that two people were killed
Two people who would’ve never been killed, had they not decided to risk their lives and the life of their victim over €36,000.
They devalued their own lives when they made the decision to devalue the life of their victim. And in most cases, this situation plays out in their favor.
Honestly, I’m glad they got what was coming to them and I hope the victim here is found totally Innocent of any wrongdoing.
He did not punish them with death. He reclaimed his property using suitable, and in fact minimal, means at his disposal. That they died is regrettable but also occupational risk, they could have taken various measures to avert that – like not robbing, not shooting, dropping the cash, etc.
The alternative is “duty to retreat” like laws which are a severe infringement on the right to avert crimes committed against you, brought to you by the “if raped, just lay down and let it happen” strain of thought. Stand your ground laws are the default in continental Europe.
You are conflating the right to self-defence with what we see in the video. It would be very unlikely that a court would deem this as self-defence.
What we are observing in the video is a disproportionate use of force with a deadly weapon. I see your strawman and raise you a slippery slope: if lethal use of force is acceptable by your measure, would you be happy to live in a society where shoplifters are shot dead in the street? I don’t aspire to live in such a society.
Shop goods generally aren’t personal property and no, corporations don’t get that right not even in Germany. As per German doctrine, “the just do not have to yield to injustice”, he is entitled to reclaim his property by available means. Again: If the robbers had wanted to lower the risk they’re in they could’ve organised the whole thing differently, e.g. people generally don’t die in foot chases.
Why should all the responsibility for the consequences fall, of all people, on the victim? Where, in your equation, is the responsibility of the attackers? Have another slippery slope: Criminals getting more and more over the top to make sure that any force against them will always be considered disproportionate: No more muggings with fists or at knifepoint, no it has to be guns and motorcycles.
By your very logic, criminals will use disproportionate force. The thief in this case would have been better off murdering the victim had he known lethal force is an acceptable response.
You are sketching a society where any injustice is countered with excessive counter force. If that’s the society in which you wish to live, it’s your prerogative, but it certainly isn’t mine.
In this particular example, I will simply remind you that €36,000 can be replaced, but these individuals’ lives cannot. No matter whether they are both culpable to the same extent, their particular circumstance, age, background—the outcome of this theft is the recovery of some money and two lives lost and likely many others disrupted.
I understand that thievery is a blemish, but death is not the better outcome. I’m very sorry to see the sentiment in this thread that it would be.
The thief in this case would have been better off murdering the victim had he known lethal force is an acceptable response.
There’s quite a higher punishment for murder than robbery, and that’s by design. Speaking about German law: What they did was armed robbery, which has quite a higher punishment than ordinary robbery. The incentives to go easy on your victims is there, plenty.
You are sketching a society where any injustice is countered with excessive counter force.
Nah. In Germany there’s been rules around excessive force since the 1920s or so, IIRC that was a case where a farmer shot kids who stole a couple of apples (no basket or such involved). The limit, very abstractly, is “where justice itself does not want to be defended by those means”. Said farmer had, besides the value of the apples being a trifle, the option of walking up to the house of the kid’s parents and have them give the kids a rather stern talking to, and probably be invited over for cake.
In this particular example, I will simply remind you that €36,000 can be replaced, but these individuals’ lives cannot.
Are you going to replace that money? If you had been there, as a witness, would you have gone ahead and said “Don’t worry Mister Ukrainian, I shall reimburse you for the actions of those scoundrels”? Yes or no? If not, who are you to judge him for going after his money?
Lastly: In Germany, if someone insults you massively and incessantly, you can deck them to make them stop. In the US, you can’t. Guess where people are getting insulted like that more often. I’m choosing precisely this example because it isn’t influenced by socio-economic necessities etc. which all to easily pull at heartstrings in these matters (and don’t fly in front of a German court, anyway: The judge would tell you to collect your welfare payments).
The article clearly indicates the robbers shot (and hit) the robbed during the short pursuit. The robbers escalated the threat to the level bodily harm, not the robbed. Self-defence is clearly a defense.
That’s fair, it could be argued.
I think this is more complicated than just what the law needs to say. Or even whether human life has value. Personally I think it is good to prevent vigilante justice and that the death penalty is too extreme a punishment for crimes.
But from a more non-legal, purely visceral standpoint… I think that anyone, good or evil, for the wrong reasons or right, forfeits their right to safety when they willfully endanger others. The second that guy pointed a gun at someone he no longer had a right to life for at least the short term future, nor did the person aiding and abetting that action. They took on that risk willingly and knowingly and they suffered the worst possible outcome for their choice. But so did the guy that ran them over, by chasing them he also forfeited his life, and had be been shot, it wouldn’t have been a tragedy either. You chose to chase someone with a gun, you accepted the risk to your life and proceeded anyway. So the real question is, is property really worth the risk to your life? Everyone in this situation is a moron, property is not worth it, imo.
It certainly is more complicated and I’m well aware that I’m armchair judging all of this. Thank you for sharing your thoughts.
Which dollar amount precisely do you place on a human life? Or to put that differently, at which dollar amount is suspected theft punishable by death?
Unpopular answer here, but: seems like the criminal decides that when they make the decision to risk their life to steal a given dollar amount.
Like…I get why we have a legal system and the channels to “resolve” this sort of thing, but for me personally, as someone who’s not creating policy or managing the justice system?
Fuck em.
If they’re stealing shit by force, and someone they’ve victimized ends up turning them into a grease spot, they shouldn’t spend even a single day in jail or face any charge.
So does the victim by choosing to retaliate over that dollar amount. Had he been shot, he also placed that same value on his own life.
Three counter points:
First, the two robbers would have not been shot by the victim had they not threatened and stole from the victim in the first place, meaning their decision to visit violent crime on the victim is still the precipitating event.
Second, the victim here is responding after the criminals decided to both commit a crime as well as to escalate the stakes of that crime to life and death. The victim, given the choice only between being victimized and responding on the terms they set, chose the latter.
Third, your last sentence is a wildly warped view, only tenable by a completely disconnected third party spectator and ridiculously impractical in the situation. It takes a severely out of touch perspective to place the blame for “devaluation of life” on a robbery victim for nothing more than having the audacity to possess a valuable and be the victim of a crime. It’s entirely possible for a victim in this case to be shot whether they resist or not, and implying that any of the blame for that is on them is as heartless as it is ridiculous.
The robbers created the situation. The robbers determined the life or death stakes. Anyone faulting the victim for anything in this situation is doing nothing but suggesting that anything beyond simply submitting to violent criminals is a bigger evil than actually being a violent criminal in the first place, which is certainly an opinion you’re entitled to hold, but one that shouldn’t be taken seriously by anyone with a shred of common sense, confidence, or justice.
I was merely pointing out the contradiction in what you said.
seems like the criminal decides that when they make the decision to risk their life to steal a given dollar amount.
You were responding to a comment about the dollar value placed on life, I was pointing out that if the victim is prepared to protect that value then they are also placing that dollar value on their own life. The aggressors had already fled, I agree with you that I don’t much care if the aggressors live or die.
I believe that anyone that shows others they are prepared to kill, are therefor prepared to die themselves. If you wield that type of power you are accepting that risk. It’s not a moral judgment, it is a reality judgment, it is simply true that you are increasing you own risk of death. But by recognizing that truth you also must recognize that when that danger passes and you chose to follow someone to retaliate, you are also accepting that risk, even if you believe you are in the “right”. The universe does not care about right or wrong, moral judgments be damned, if you put yourself into danger, then you are accepting the consequences of your actions. For those reasons, it’s just silly to follow someone after danger has passed. Once they do that they have become someone who has potentially forfeited their life.
The one thing I regret about self-driving cars is that it would make something like this more difficult.
Based on the self-driving cars now, it would just run them over before it slowed down and gave them an opportunity to rob someone. Lol.
FAFO-moment
Wonder how long it’ll take for people to learn not to fuck with Ukrainians.
So satisfying
They definitely fucked around with the wrong man.
Good. Those theives got what they had coming. Won’t be doing it again, and hopefully deter any more degenerates from doing the same thing.
Society is a little better now
Something similar happened recently here in South Africa, a woman bumped the thief with her car. He didn’t die though, and she wasn’t prosecuted. People are sick of crime here
What was he doing with €36,000 in cash?!
Who cares. Don’t rob people if you value your life. This is particularly pertinent if they are armed; and good luck telling who is concealed carrying or who realizes the 1-ton machine they are at the wheel of is a damn fine weapon.
They should bill the next of kin of the two robbers to repair the window and retune the suspension.
I’m not a huge fan of sins-of-a-father, but absolutely take it out of the robbers’ estates. An emotional hardship sum should be awarded too. Being robbed at gunpoint is a traumatic experience that the robbers’ estate should also pay for.
Yes, well said.
I would hope that the families of the criminals wouldn’t support or defend their behavior so they shouldn’t be held responsible for the consequences.
Doesn’t matter. Those scumbag degenerate theives shouldn’t have robbed him. They are a fucking drain on society and got what they deserve
