Actually I looked up the real story of Johnny Appleseed and he was more about making hard cider and selling land. 🙃
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Yup, this whole ownership thing is totally fubar!
(and yes, I do prefer to own things too, but there could be a healthy middle ground)
In my mom’s hometown there are fruit trees literally everywhere. Everyone and their dog has them. The public areas have them. The forests have them. There are fruit all over the ground. Nobody ‘steals’ or gathers to sell. They make alcohol and share it with anyone that comes within line of sight like pokemon trainers forcing you to battle. Also all of the kids are sick of eating the fruit but if they feel like eating any they don’t even have to pick it themselves because all the parents and grandparents will pick wash and even cut up the fruit and serve it on a platter with even the slightest hint of interest. I ate a lot of plums and pears and drank a fuckload of brandy.
What’s the town? You can’t just promise a bounty of food and not name-drop it.
Sounds like somewhere in the Balkans.
I’m more interested in the moonshine battles. I don’t think I can outdrink small town shiners but by jove I’ll give it a shot.
My garden, or what’s left of it, is full of insects stealing it.
Ants can steal more than 10x their body weight in one go.
Let me introduce you to my neighbor Mr. Groundhog.
Over here it’s small mammals and birds that get most of the yard tree fruit.
Apple seeds have like a one in 10k chance of producing a sweet apple that is nearly as good as what else is on the market, and like one in 100k for it to be better. Every other one comes out to a nearly inedible crab apple.
Always seemed like a cool hobby to me if I somehow became rich. It’s like a gamble that is just as much your time, as it is your money.
yeah but if you grow an apple tree with crappy fruit you can saw off branches and graft good branches from a good tree onto it so that it produces good apples, that is how nearly all apple orchards are
johnny appleseed would also show up right after native americans were run off from their native orchards and declare those sapling riparian orchards his.
not a coincidence as his business was selling sour apple saplings to new immigrants.
johnny appleseed was a typical christian businessman using the chaos of genocide as a place to put his wallet and the marketing of a pot on his head to get notice.
and the US destroyed the last of the orchards that he claimed as his creation during Prohibition.
because usa.
Apparently apples were primarily used for making booze right from the start of the country, which does indeed make Johnny Appleseed’s story feel rather different.
Washington was a big fan of apple jack, which is what you get when apple cider is freeze distilled.
Much of the US is experiencing prime weather for apple jack actually, though it’s a little late to get a mash started in time for this weekend’s weather.
Probably not primarily booze, but vinegar. Prior to refrigeration and canning, food preservation was massively important. This meant salting, smoking or pickling. Apples that weren’t good for eating were important as a source for producing vinegar.
It was for cider. They drank a staggering amount of beer, cider and rum on a daily basis in the early 1800’s. Cider consumption per capita in the was around 15 gallons/year. They drank even more beer and rum. They were also drinking around 5 gallons/year of distilled spirits.
Most people were what we would classify as functional alcoholics today.
If you know what brewing with apples and not having access to modern equipment, sanitation and yeast is like then I highly doubt they were in short supply of vinegar.
Yeah, that’s… that’s what they’re saying.
In Finland there is this law called jokamiehenoikeudet. Roughly translates into “everymans rights”
Everymans rights allow everyone to enjoy nature in regardless of who owns the land as long as it is done responsibly and without causing harm or disturbance. These rights apply to all people, including visitors.
You are allowed to: Walk, ski, and cycle freely in forests, fields, and other natural areas (as long as you do not damage crops or do it on somebodys yard). Camp temporarily on uncultivated land. Pick wild berries, mushrooms, and flowers (aslong as they are not protected.) Swim, row, and use waterways freely.
But you cant: Cause damage to nature, animals, or property. Disturb residents or invade privacy. Light open fires without the landowner’s permission. Drive motor vehicles off-road without permission. Harm protected species or take branches, bark, or timber from living trees.
So atleast in Finland if the fruit tree is not on anybodys yard or planted for a business use, you can eat the fruit and its not a crime.
It’s all of Northern Europe, not Finland especially.
It’s called “the right to roam” in English.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_to_roam
All Nordics, Scotland, and even some more central European countries like Switzerland and Czech Republic have variations of it.
And it is not the reason we don’t plant fruit trees in cities. The reason we don’t plant fruit trees in cities is theyre messy as fuck.
Just think of how often you see buckets of apples labeled “omenoita ilmaseksi!” in the fall. Because people want to clean up their yards of all the rotten apples. Imagine that on every sidewalk.
Thats cool. I did know Sweden and Norway had something similiar, but did not know Scotland and the others. I did not bring those up, as i dont know how similiar they are.
Also i did not say anything that anybody should be planting apple trees anywhere. I was just saying what Freedom to roam is in Finland as i tought it was somehow revelant to the post.
Just think of how often you see buckets of apples labeled “omenoita ilmaseksi!” in the fall.
Im thinkin really hard, but i dont think i have ever seen sign that says that, but every now and then when there is good year my relatives tell me to come and pick the ones they cant bother to juice or make jelly.
Again, im not saying cities should be planting fruit trees, but just for an discussion i am going to argue for it.
I think you are somewhat hyperboling the messines of the trees. Of course if every single road side is covered with fruit trees its messy, but one or two trees in a public park could very well be nice. Even if nobody would eat any apples and they all would drop in the ground it would take what, an hour for city worker to clean it up. Cityworkers spends allready days on every autum cleaning leafs and redying the other plants for the winter. Few man hours in a year for keeping the trees well cut and cleaning any leftover fruits would not effect any city budgetwise.
I will also argue pre-emptivelly that eaten apple cores would not be big problem either. Atleast where i live, people bring their own snacks to the parks and they usually dont leave any garbage behind as long as there are enough thras cans nearby. Another argument could also be that it does not have to be messy plants. Where i live there are red- and blackcurrant bushes in park. I have also seen walnut trees in many countries (but as a dog owner i have to say in real life im against those, and as far trees go they are not really that clean trees) Also there are few towns here i know that has free community gardes, where city offers the tools and spaces and people can grow potatoes, carrots, peas or what ever they want aslongs as they being their seeds (and its not illegal). I would say in areas like those apple or pear tree would fit nicely.
If i wanted to argue against the fruit trees in public i would rather argue that many of them are heavy pollinators and especially in autum they will attract lots of bees and wasps. Both pollen and stinging insects at public places are bad for allergic people.
I have a bunch of cherry tomatoes plants on the outside fence of my garden. And 6 kiwi plants. They produce so much fruit and i deliberately placed them on the roadside on a road where not a lot of people even walk by. You know, so people can take some fruits if they want. One day my neighbour came over and he was really concerned that people would steal my fruit. I explained to him that it’s not really stealing when i even provide little containers to take some on the road or home. The conversation was way longer than i was comfortable with, and i don’t think he ever understood the concept.
The reason we don’t do it today is because fruits would fall on the ground and people would complain it gets dirty. As stupid as that.
City planners in the 60s favored male trees for this reason. Then air pollution and a warming climate, mixed with all that extra pollen, gave rise to a huge increase in seasonal allergies in urban areas.
If you’ve ever walked through a spot with female ginkgo trees that are fruiting you’ll understand why. There’s way too many to eat and they’re somehow sticky and slippery at the same time
Yeah, I’ve got a persimmon tree and pecan tree, all the good stuff gets eaten by the squirrels, what’s falls just makes a rotten mess.
Not just dirty, but the fruit falls on the ground which attracts bugs, rats, etc. that eat the fallen fruit.
You can’t take the seed of a tasty apple, plant it and expect the tree to have similarly tasting apples. If you want to duplicate a tree, you need to take a twig and graft it on top of an existing tree.
Source: MinuteEarth on Youtube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIajCqcvTg8)
[Edit: Previously, before I remembered that this video exists, I couldn’t remember the correct word for “grafting”. Hence Sidyctism II.’s response.
I love that grafting is real and it works. It always seems like straight scifi to me.
The real marvels are the ones where they graft apples, oranges, etc together. Expensive as hell and they don’t survive as long though.
Grafting?
Take a small branch of a tree you like, splice it using a technique, take a small young tree of same type but different variety, splice it, attach branch of variety you like, seal. Nurture it, and the branch uses the donor tree to pull up nutrients and water, and the branch then grows into a whole new tree. It’s cloning, but grafting helps it move faster and without as much risk.
They were responding to the original version of my comment where I asked what the technique was called.
When grafting, do you need to remove any of the original branches? Or will the tree grow two different types of apples? Or some kind of hybrid?
Any branches you don’t remove will still be the original tree. You can have a single tree that yields multiple varieties of apples.
Costco was selling fruit trees with multiple different fruits in it a few years ago. One cherry tree has 4 different cherries in it.
If I had a hard i would have bought one and put it in my yard
Well, you can just buy apple trees from a nursery, it’s what farmers do.
Yes but that’s because the nursery has already grafted the branches of a known-to-be-tasty cultivar onto that tree before putting it up for sale.
Yeah, I’d just rather pay someone who knows what they’re doing for it rather than fuck it up over and over again on my own
They’re also soil, water and other conditions. Doubt a tree planted on a city is going to have the nutrients to give you tasty fruits
There are plenty of fruit trees around towns here(eastern Europe).
And they do produce fruit. Pollution around major roads and things like dumpsters are a problem, but the trees are perfectly capable of producing tasty fruit.
Enter Andernach – the edible town
I’d be worried about someone taking all the fruit from all the trees then selling it.
That’s the point. Why have we allowed this to become a problem?
Some problems are good to have.
Too many trees to harvest them all. People won’t buy it when they can pick their own for free. If people see you taking ALL of the fruit, not just what you can use, they will stop you.
you’re underestimating tweakers
I underestimate tweakers not being able to sell fruit that people won’t buy?
I underestimate tweakers not being beat up when other people see them trying to take all the fruit?
No, not being able to steal all of the fruit.
In times like these when federal agents are murdering people in the streets for filming them, it’s almost comforting to come into threads like these and see people still having the world’s stupidest debate about fruit trees planted on public land.
There’s only so much batshit crazy a brain can take before fruit related debates become inevitable.
There’s an issue with Wild Ramps. Very very difficult to grow in a garden to that point that no one does it. So if you want it, you have to harvest from the wild and the places they grow is limited for the same reason they’re difficult to garden.
Foragers that find a patch growing either keep the spot a secret and harvest responsibility or it gets shared and over harvested to the point of destroying the patch.
Ramps aren’t the same thing as a fruit tree, but I would be worried about randos breaking branches trying to harvest the fruits. You need to pick trees and shrubs that are resistant to that. Raspberry bushes have thorns, so maybe that?
Only practical issue, is that unpicked fruit falls and makes a mess. but I don’t think it is a big issue, as we already tend to deal with leaf foliage falling in the fall, and no one complains about that. there is also the concept of botanical sexism which has been fucking everyone with allergies for decades. So I will 100% be in favour of using fruiting trees in urban areas.
Look at Valencia, they put orange trees in the streets. and it is a beloved Valencian institution.
Your Johnny Appleseed comment reminded me of my favorite movie musical, Paint Your Wagon (1969) with Clint Eastwood and Lee Marvin. And, yes, they both sing!
Elizabeth: Did you know that the Fenty’s had an apple farm back in Pennsylvania?
Ben Rumson: Apple jack, huh?
Mr. Fenty: No, sir, we did not make apple jack.
Ben Rumson: Then, what did you grow the apples for?
Mr. Fenty: Mr. Rumson, do you think that everything that comes out of the earth should be used to make liquor?
Ben Rumson: Whenever possible, yes.
Gonna paint our wagon
gonna paint it good
We ain’t braggin’
We’re gonna coat that wood!
Gonna paint your wagon
Gonna paint it fiiine
Gonna use oil-based paint
Cause the wood is pīíîine
Ponderoooooosa pine
Correct, it was a land grab scam based on the laws of the time.
IIRC, if he planted trees it was then his land because he was using it, so he could then sell it for actual money. This was after the military had killed or chased out the natives who lived on it, of course.
IIRC
You don’t recall correctly, and I have no idea where you got that information. Appleseed actually was a successful businessman who bought some land, owning about 1200 acres (~5 km2), but by all accounts he was a genuinely good person, and I’ve never heard what you’re saying (and not substantiating) that he did.
Ah but you see, their comment has the message of “capitalism bad”, so it doesn’t really matter if what they wrote is true.
I’d go even further and say that this is more generic than capitalism/anticapitalism wish fulfillment. It’s a desire to speak truth to power but without any of the effort or sincere curiosity to learn what that truth is. To have that truth condensed onto a smaller and smaller spoon until you don’t even realize you’re being spoonfed at all is the ideal.
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“I’m too old to care if what I say is true” what age do I get to just start saying stuff and act like other people are the problem when they call me out on pulling shit out of my ass and presenting it as fact?
Well, back in my 20s a coworker forgave me for leaning Democrat because “if you’re a Republican in your 20s you have no heart. If you’re a Democrat in your 30s you have no brain.”
So, I’d say never. Reality matters at all ages. Well, until you have deep dementia. At that point, enjoy the invisible angels that help you use the restroom. You need all the help you can get. (Source: my mom on the occasions of caring for my grandmother)
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Yes, capitalism bad, but uhhhhh
You’ll get it if you survive to my age.
OK boomer
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Citation [21]“Johnny Appleseed, Orchardist,” prepared by the staff of the Public Library of Fort Wayne and Allen Couth, November 1952, page 26
Here, I took the trouble for you. He was not, by any accounts, a good business man.
Please avoid spreading disinformation. This isn’t facebook.
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What’s the goal here? Agitate people on line for fun?
You’re not arguing in good faith. You tell people that you are in your sixties and disabled, as if that’s excuse for your behavior. You add no context or sources. What’re you looking to get out of engaging in a public forum? What does lemmy.world get you that Facebook does not?
This is a dumb take.
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And you really think that at 62 I’m gonna go track down a historical factoid to satisfy the gatekeeping of a LEMMY sub?
Well hey, as a wise person once said:
Too damn many stupid people in this world.
Good citation. That guy is a genius.
He’s also taking enough gabbapentin to stun a horse so his memory isn’t super great.
Good cook though.
popcorn
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If it smells like shit in one place, it’s probably shit. If it smells like shit everywhere, it’s time to check your shoe.
I thought he made his name by basically being a consultant and helping others plant their trees. The law at the time was you had to grow X number of apple trees and the land was yours. That was because apple trees take multiple years to grow so it proved you were taking care of the land for multiple years.
Yeah, Appleseed would generally move ahead of pioneers and start nurseries on land he thought would be settled. It wasn’t some land shakedown scam like the original comment is implying; it was a very useful service that Appleseed would even forego payment for to those who couldn’t afford it. Apples were a dietary staple on the frontier, often used for bartering, and sometimes, as you said, you even legally needed an orchard.
Well it was useful for the pioneers, however you have to acknowledge the massive genocide that was committed to make that land “available” to those same “pioneers”.
Apples were a dietary staple in so much as they could be brewed into cider and the resulting mash was then used to bulk up food stocks as feed for invasive farm animals.
Your comments don’t seem to address any of this. Why is that?
Your comments don’t seem to address any of this. Why is that?
Because that’s not at all what the original comment was about. Why am I expected to offer up a treatise on the consequences of apples on the American frontier in order to debunk someone purporting – unsubstantiated and evidently with no regard for the truth – that Appleseed was running “a land grab scam based on the laws of the time”?
Edit: I guess since the original comment mentioned it, I could mention the obvious that, no shit, this was stolen land just like effectively every parcel of US land. But what good does this do our discussion of Appleseed’s character as an alleged scam artist? It’s generally understood that Appleseed had a very good relationship with the Native Americans he encountered, and yes, sometimes you can be an overall well-meaning person while advancing a deeply unethical system.
Thank you for the further context. The original tone of the comment I replied to could have been construed as support.
“Consulatant”: “Hey guys here’s a way to lay claim to government land taken from the natives. Just plant a bunch of crabapple seeds like I did and you can claim to be “working the land”, too.”
I’m not buying any good intentions here, sorry.
Did I say good intentions? Consultants get paid for their work.
And I’m sure you think this means something.
There are no good capitalists comrade.
Cool story bro
Dude, who knows where I saw it but Honest Opinion says he’s a useful idiot and you’re saying he’s a successful businessman who bought land, completely ignoring the whole homestead laws of the day.
I’m too old and cynical to buy “he was a good person” in the US during that time frame. Sorry, not gonna happen.
Sorry for the YouTube link, if anyone can find it hosted elsewhere let me know I’ll update my post.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=aD_Tyj-wbC4
Johnny never really profited. By all accounts he was likely neurodivergent and Apple Trees were his special interest. His labor and efforts to educate others was leveraged by others to snatch land up and proof of improvement to the land for homesteading.
The US government was absolutely at fault for the genocide of indigenous peoples. But Johnny was at worse a useful idiot and at best a roving horticulturist who wasn’t very good at owning land.
Useful idiot or not, the fact is, according to The Technician at least, he was a successful businessman, so somebody is wrong here.
I’m too old and cynical to believe that it wasn’t a scam, ND or not, and that doesn’t absolve him from complicity.
Do you have any sources that support your argument?
C’mon man, he’s already established that he’s old! Once you reach a certain age, facts don’t matter, just fee-fees.
Probably, but I don’t care enough to look them up.
Factoids aren’t my special interest any more since I became disabled.
You’ll go about spouting things as if they are facts, and when questioned you simply hand-wave them away as if checks comments “being old” and “being disabled” are in any way supporting your point.
You sound exactly like my MAGA in-laws.
I can see you don’t come from a very smart family then.
At some point you’ll realize that not every little thing you say needs a citation because some kid on the internet gets his panties in a twist.
Calm down, buddy, you’re gonna pop a blood vessel.
Ah, ad hominem attacks because you can’t counter anyone’s points.
I see my maga boomer comment was spot on.
Then why are you caring enough to continue being a nuisance?
Either you have something of substance to say on the matter, or you shut up and listen what people that have can tell you, arrogant old man.
I’m both easily entertained and easily amused.
And you guys are apparently so thin-skinned you can’t help being reactive little bunnies.
Let me elaborate, because your ego-driven brain didn’t register what i said.
You’re not laughing at my expense, you’re laughing while shitting your own pants. I pointed that out, and now you’re saying that you’re feeling amused because of how thin-skinned i am.
The only thing i feel, is distaste and resentment towards your inability to accept the fact that you’re wrong at something as minor, your pathetic attempts to heal your wounded ego after, and your supposed tendency to make yourself feel good at the expense of others.
The last one is especially ironic considering that you seem to be far left.
If you aren’t going to find sources to backup your nonsense then please just keep it to yourself.
No.
Alright well no one wants to hear it so idk what you hope to accomplish.
more like johnny crappleseed amirite?
The seeds Johnny Appleseed used were sour and tasted like shit. They were used for making hard cider. No kids would eat them.
Cider production requires very sweet apples, because you’re looking for sugar.
It’s not a debate. This is just you being absolutely wrong about something, but being too stupid to do like 5 minutes of research before posting it.
iirc Johnny Appleseed spread seeds so people could make alcoholic cider
