- cross-posted to:
- hackernews@derp.foo
- cross-posted to:
- hackernews@derp.foo
Rental firm Hertz Global Holdings (HTZ.O) said on Thursday it would sell about 20,000 electric vehicles, including Teslas, from its U.S. fleet due to higher expenses related to collision and damage, and will opt for gas-powered vehicles.
Shares of the company, which also operates vehicles from Swedish EV maker Polestar among others, fell about 4%. Tesla’s (TSLA.O) stock was down about 3%.
Hertz also expects to book an about $245 million charge related to depreciation expenses from the proposed EV sale in the fourth quarter of 2023.
Hertz’s decision underscores the bumpy road EVs have hit as the growth rate on sales of those vehicles has slowed, causing carmakers like General Motors (GM.N) and Ford (F.N) to scale back production plans of those vehicles.
Morgan Stanley analyst Adam Jonas in a note said the car rental firm’s move was a warning across the EV space and it was another sign that EV expectations need to be “reset downward across the market.”
“While consumers enjoy the driving experience and fuel savings (per mile) of an EV, there are other ‘hidden’ costs to EV ownership,” Jonas added.
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They almost exclusively bought Teslas and Polestars and are now complaining about maintenance costs? I remember a few years ago, the first time Tesla wasn’t on the very bottom of the JD Powers Initial Build Quality list the editors put up a special note that it wasn’t because Tesla had gotten better, only because Polestar was even worse.
Seems like Hertz’s main problem is common sense.
I’d really like to rent a Hyundai Ionic 5 for a road trip next summer but I can’t find anyone local that rents any electrics other than Teslas.
Ehhh, EVs, and modern cars in general, have a bit of a bad habit of adding a bunch of technology that makes what used to be pretty cheap repairs way more costly.
It used to be if you had a fender bender that tore apart your bumper, you were able to replace the bumper for pretty cheap, like maybe $100 just for the part, couple hundred for labor, because it’s just a big piece of molded plastic.
Now, the bumpers often house tons of sensors, often up to and including rear-view cameras. Now to replace your bumper and all the sensors, the bill is $5k.
Some of that’s not even that modern. I got in a small accident in my 2007 Prius and they had to replace the entire front of the body. The bumper, grill, and front quarter panels are all shipped as a single piece.
I think you might have gotten taken advantage of as I’m pretty sure the front quarter panel is not attached to the front bumper and can be replaced individually.
The grill I’m not sure about but I’m pretty sure I’ve disconnected the bumper from the front quarter panel on my 2007.I could also be misremembering the details, it was 10+ years ago and insurance made me take it to the dealer for body work. I remember it was a lot of the front end though.
Edit: I suddenly remembered the details. When the bumper crumpled it broke the clips on the quarter panels that attached it to the frontend assembly. So they had to replace the quarter panels too.
Modern cars - even in 2007 - were designed to crumple in an accident. I’m not surprised that those panels also go enough damage that they need to be replaced.
Though of course I have no information on this incident. I’m just speculating based on general knowledge without knowing specific facts that are relevant.
That’s certainly possible!
Tesla touch sensitive, motorized door handles…. That are now everywhere… are a perfect example of those.
Even if the flush-handle made enough of a difference to justify it, motorising the thing so it pops out was stupidly over-engineering the problem.
Replaced a taillight for a late model GMC Sierra. Dealer only item, $770 bucks list and had a CORE CHARGE on a taillight. Absolutely nuts.
Really informative video. Thank you.
I am kind of happy that I cheaped out on my car when I bought it. The only real issues I have had were that the speakers bugged out so that one side sounded like faulty wiring inside a tin can, and the Bluetooth connection made it impossible to make or take calls while driving as it blasted the caller or recipient with aggressive loud static. None of these really needed fixing, music is nice but not a must have and I could blame the car when I didn’t want to talk to people when I was driving or running errands. The new owner hasn’t seemed to notice or has no complaints…
Funnily enough, I thought I’d have to sell the POS at a loss, but I got money back that covered my car loan and afforded me an e-bike at least.
Tried with an EV car from a car pool for a while as well, but the e-bike was so much better.
They have a bunch of Chevy bolts in the fleet too. I loved renting them because they were cheap and fun to drive. I’d return them with almost no charge left for their$25 fee, because they were slow charging and I normally didn’t have a place to go up for long spells.
NGL the venue was not a bad rental. Just not something I would own. I literally was lost in a parking lot looking for my car and was basically standing next to it when I hit the panic button to find it. It looks like so many other things its hard to find it.
Polestar was even worse
This surprises me, given the Volvo association
Not really a suprise considering their change in management.
Volvo used to be good, but they’ve been slipping.
Isn’t Volvo a Chinese company now?
Even the Ioniq 5 is susceptible to this issue. A few people have hit road debris which dented the case around the cells and they were quoted $60,000 (CAD) to replace the entire battery so insurance totalled both cars out.
I’ve been eyeing this thing to buy since it was released but now I’m second guessing that after hearing this. I assume it’s due to Hyundai not having a large enough supply of battery packs in order to have a robust supply of replacement parts, so hopefully they can reduce that price by an order of magnitude once they do.
Jd Powers initial build quality you say?
I just rented an EV from Hertz. I loved it. I planned to rent one next time I needed a rental.
Granted, I’m not keeping them in business with my 2 rentals a year.
Hopefully the now arriving wave of electric cars built by incumbent car companies won’t have the same issues as Teslas in terms of being single integrated bricks of technology that you have to throw out if any part breaks.
Like GM’s Optium cars straight up not allowing you to drive because of failed OTA updates? OTA updates should not be necessary in the first place.
Tesla is notoriously shitty with repairs and the fact that they are dumping them because of that is not surprising.
I wouldn’t be surprised if the hidden costs aren’t just around time. EVs are great, generally, but they’re sort of purpose specific. Having a 250 mile range (at best), people generally not knowing where to recharge, the additional time to recharge, not being able to charge at a lot of hotels, severely limited long range ability (without a lot of stops)… All of those add up to a poor experience. I can’t think of a time where I rented a car and an EV would have been an option that I wanted. MAYBE if I only needed to go as much as a single charge would allow me, but this is just not a good fit for rentals, in my opinion.
100% this. My sister had a nightmare rental experience. The rental company was sold out on gas cars and gave her a Hyundai EV.
She had to drive about 200 miles through some remote areas. When she left, the car said 300 miles. She figured 50% was a good enough buffer. She started driving and range dropped quickly. About 100 mi into the trip, it was saying 40 miles left.
She was in the middle of nowhere with spotty cell reception worried that she would be stranded in the desert. She was afraid enough to call her daughter and say, “If you don’t hear from me, send help.”
The only charger she could find was at a Hyundai dealer. She just made it, but had to sleep in the car until the next morning when they opened to get the car charged.
She swears never again.
That’s not an EV problem, but one of infrastructure.
This is like complaining about useless combustion engines when driving somewhere with no gas stations…
Only partially, inaccuracy in range estimations are certainly an EV problem.
If the infrastructure doesn’t support EVs for a journey, that’s an EV problem.
The argument here is always that EVs need to solve a problem to become viable. No, they don’t. They don’t need to develop EVs with insane ranges to adapt to a non-existent infrastructure.
That’s just diversion. Fix the infrastructure instead of pretending that EVs need fixing imaginary problems first.
Electric cars are a lot heavier and thus more deadly than gas vehicles—I wonder if the costs they mention related to collisions are largely insurance related
It’s because Tesla repair costs are sky high and they never have parts in stock. It’s not an EV problem. It’s a Tesla problem.
And by a lot you mean 10-15% heavier?
Yeah. A model 3 is ~4K freedom units and a Toyota Camry is ~3.5K freedom units.
For example, the 2023 GMC Hummer EV, a full-size pickup, weighs more than 9,000 pounds, sporting a 2,900-pound battery. In comparison, the 2023 GMC Sierra, also a full-size pickup, weighs less than 6,000 pounds, according to Kelley Blue Book.
Traffic safety is particularly concerning. In crashes, the “baseline fatality probability” increases 47% for every 1,000 additional pounds in the vehicle — and the fatality risk is even higher if the striking vehicle is a light truck (SUV, pickup truck, or minivan), according to a 2011 study published by the National Bureau of Economic Research.
The Hummer EV is a pretty ludicrous vehicle, and not typical. For a more apples to apples comparison, the gas-powered Hyundai Kona weighs 3005 to 3483 lbs, while the EV version of the same car weighs from 3571 lbs to 3891 lbs, depending on configuration.
Sure, let’s act like Full Sized pickup is a meaningful term. They compared the Hummer EV to the smallest line of Sierra trucks, the 1500.
The Sierra 3500, also a full sized pickup tops out at 8300 pounds. The Cybertruck tops out at 6843 pounds, so I guess I could use that to say that EVs are lighter than ICE vehicles.
The F150 to F150 Lightning is probably the best comparison, and it shows the lightning to be about 17% heavier.
Why don’t we compare the Hummer EV to… a Hummer H2? You know, the much smaller, older ICE one that was also 8,600 lbs?
Everyone seems to miss the “higher expenses related to collision and damage” part which is actually the most important part.
Why would electric cars crash more often than ICE cars? EV and ICE cars should drive exactly the same. I know my electric Berlingo drives exactly the same as ICE Berlingo.
Maybe the reason is that some popular EV brand makes cars that are dangerous to drive by installing non-standard steering wheels, turn signal switches and touch screens instead of buttons (not to mention too powerful engines)? If that’s the case it says nothing about EVs in general and definitely doesn’t indicate there are ‘hidden’ costs to EV ownership. Just don’t buy bad EVs only because they have more range.
Nothing in that statement indicates EVs are crashing more frequently. What they’re saying is that all their rental vehicles are susceptible to crashing but these ones cost a lot more to fix compared to the rest.
The thing I find interesting is that these vehicles should be covered by insurance that would cover repairs after deductible.
I don’t understand why there would be any difference between EV and ICE in that regard.
Companies this size might self insure and do their own repairs. If parts cost 5x as much, the repair is going to cost more. Same as with a Toyota versus an Audi.
Yeah… I was thinking that self insuring would be the only possible way this could make sense really.
It just never occurred to me before that car rental companies might do that.
Again, why would EV be more expensive to fix after a crash? EV Berlingo uses the same components as ICE Berlingo so as long as the crash doesn’t damage the battery cost will be the same. And if battery is damaged the car is probably totalled anyway. So again, is it simply because fixing Teslas is more expensive?
P.S. more frequent crashes could still be the reason and since we recently saw reports about Tesla drivers causing more crashes it probable is.
Perhaps the battery is damaged? In some EV it runs the full length of the car. Side impact in ICE dents door and side frame but engine is fine. Getting hit basically anywhere has potential to damage battery.
Also probably is just more expensive to repair and requires specalized/qualified repair places. Kinda like Iphones with lack of Right to Repair protection.
This would makes sense so we have two options:
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Teslas crash more often (which they actually do: https://cleantechnica.com/2023/12/20/tesla-drivers-get-into-the-most-crashes-but-why/)
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Batteries in EVs are easily demanded. I found this:
Carmakers including Ford and General Motors have said they’re developing battery packs that are easier to repair, replace and, ultimately, reuse, but Tesla and other EV makers are reportedly going in the opposite direction. Tesla’s use of structural batteries that are integral into an EV’s architecture make it difficult to repair or recycle a damaged battery.
The benefit of these structural battery packs is mostly in the assembly — using the battery as a part of the architecture makes it quicker (and therefore cheaper) to construct the entire car. (https://jalopnik.com/ev-battery-damage-minor-crash-car-totaled-recycling-1850243294)
So Tesla definitely has this problem. I can’t find info about other brands but my guess is that for example my Berlingo doesn’t use structural battery since it has the same design as ICE version. It really looks like Teslas as just terrible cars for car rental but not necessarily indicate ‘hidden’ costs for EVs in general.
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They’re not repairing whatever a Berlingo is. They’re repairing Teslas and Polestars. This is like saying my Camry is cheap to fix, so an SL500 Mercedes should also be cheap to fix.
Also that report about Tesla drivers having the most accidents was complete garbage based on junk data (car insurance applications using the driver’s complete record but only the current vehicle they wanted to insure). Even the company he worked for included a large heading at the top of the page indicating that the statements were simply the opinion of the author.
Well they’ve lost my business. I refuse to rent a ICE car here in Europe, unless I’m renting a van or something for hauling something. Why should I pay for gas, give kids asthma, and contribute to climate change whenever I need a car? Plenty of EV options here that aren’t shitty like Hertz.
Very noble of you but most environmental issues with cars are not related to what kind of fuel they are propelled forward by. Rental cars are arguably a better option for the environment, because it is one vehicle used by many, regardless of fuel type.
I doubt OP is intending to forgo renting entirely.
Yes you are right.
Absolutely, and that’s why I don’t own a car. But there’s no way I’ll rent an ICE car from Hertz for a weekend trip if there are better rental services /carshares that have EV cars.
The main issue with EV cars vs ICE cars is that they require a lot more materials and resources, meaning you have to drive more to make them worth manufacturing. If you only use the car on weekends, then it will take years to offset the cost. Which is exactly why it’s perfect to have ICE rental cars, since they’re shared, they put on a lot more miles, and they are used more frequently than private cars.
Of course the best option for the environment is to not drive at all, which I aim for. I wish there was better public transportation and bicycle infrastructure in Sweden. I do fine with my bike and the trains here in the big city where I live, but once you’re 50 km outside of Stockholm, it’s just not practical to go on trips without a car with the current state of swedish infrastructure.
Thanks for your answer, interesting read 👍
That does seem wasteful of course. But I also wonder what will happen to the EV batteries in the end, and what will happen with cars that are too dependent on software, will the cars be unusable when the manufacturer does not want to support them anymore. All products get old and “worse” over time, but with EVs that seem to happen alot quicker just because of battery and software. Will there be brand new cars, 10 years from now being bricked because because the app is not supported anymore or the battery is not holding a practical amount of charge.
I find EVs outside of metropolitan areas in Sweden being very unpractical too. Not because there are no charging infrastructure, but I find it very unreliable. I never know what I am going to get when I stop at a station, are there any unused chargers, how much power delivery, is it working at all, what kind of app etc etc. Keep in mind i drove around the holidays where, of course, alot of other people also drove, so my experience is not the most positive in that sense. It works better for everyday commuting, because of the simple fact that you can mostly charge where at home.
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The main hidden cost is that regular ass people aren’t going to be able to afford one for another twenty years or more.
I’m in my forties, and I’m still driving a car from 1999.
I have never owned a new car, all my vehicles have been used, and I’ve bought them in cash, outright, no car payment.
The prices will never come down on a used EV enough for me to justify the purchase, especially since I can find cars from 20 years ago that don’t have excess features that will cost me more money to repair. Like a bunch of rear-view cameras and sensors, often placed inside the bumper, make a small fender bender into a costly repair bill because it’s no longer just a bumper, it’s a bumper with all kinds of expensive shit inside of it.
You can’t find an EV with roll-down windows, no extras, and just a radio. They don’t fucking make 'em. EV’s were just the first step of the auto industry fully embracing that all vehicles are luxury, and economy cars just don’t exist anymore.
Add to all this that charging networks haven’t exactly rolled out nationwide and you’re left with feeling stuck with ICE cars longer than you’d like.
I would have loved an EV a decade ago, but literally nobody is making an EV I can fucking afford before I croak.
Long story short: As with everything, the blame will be put disproportionately on the poor while ignoring that buying an EV is something most poor people simply cannot afford.
Yup, a cheap EV is an EV with a dead $20k battery in it
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I’m about as interested in servicing a Tesla as Hertz is, especially considering the exploding suspension parts.
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I’m seeing ~$33k for Model 3s. I thought that’s what they were supposed to be new. No way I’m paying that for a former rental.
Yeah, Hertz’s pricing on their EV sales seems to be at the absolute upper end of the market, which is crazy for rentals. I was hoping their 20,000 unit sell-off would drive down used prices, but if anything it’s going to cause them to go up.
$18k for a used vehicle in 2024 isn’t doing too bad.
What?!? I’ve never paid $18k for a car.
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the used car market is still so borked that I can’t afford one at all.
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Ring me when I can buy it with $3k-5k in cash like I’ve been doing most of my damn life or I will continue to not give one fucking shit.
$18k, what a fucking joke and a half, for a vehicle that’s way more costly to repair.
My fiat 500e is worth ~$5k.
Simple car, minimal extra features when compared with new. And as of this year a decade old.
I Love it, never had issues with it, and since I bought it 5 years ago has saved me it’s current value in not buying gas alone, not including oil changes, brakes, etc.
I’m not saying ev is for everyone right now and I agree the current ev available new don’t seem to be likely to be good used cars. Just that this one seems to be one that doesn’t fit a lot of your complaints.
This one is finally going to be available in the US in 2024, but I have a deep dread that import costs are going to make it not so cheap of a used vehicle in the US.
Europe and China have blown the US out of the water on affordable EVs and I guess maybe I should make clear I’m speaking very, very Amerocentrically on this issue.
There’s literally a number of affordable Chinese EVs that don’t have a bunch of extra features, but the cost of getting one to the US and making it street legal is basically more than a conventional EV.
I think you misunderstood me. I have the gen1 500e. Not the facelift model. Mine is a 2013 model year.
They were sold in California and Washington almost exclusively.
Wild, I was unaware of that. Looking at the Seattle craigslist, it looks like the Seattle area has a handful of used ones in that price range, 2015 models.
The older 500e was a “compliance car” that only gets about 80 miles of range and doesn’t charge very quickly m. Fine for going to the grocery or maybe work if it’s nearby. That’s about it.
The 2024 model isn’t much better. Only about 120 miles of range and hella expensive for what it is. You’d be better off getting something else with fast charging and 200 miles or more of range.
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Funny because my local craigslist has fucking plenty of 2000-2010 vehicles in that price range. Plenty of private sellers still go in that range.
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My Pontiac with less than 110k miles on it (only just broke 100k last year) begs to differ but you do you.
Tesla didn’t even start making the Model S until two years after Pontiac was killed off.
The 1970’s called - they want the idea that cars are worn out at 250k miles back.
Modern cars with 250k miles are just broken in. They are not in perfect condition anymore, but with minimal maintenance most still have a lot of life left.
That’s just buying a used car. No new cars have ever been in the 3k-5k range…my car from like 10 years ago was in the 18k range.
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EVs are a lot cheaper to run so maybe you shouldn’t concentrate exclusively on the sticker price. Also, in the long term EVs will be cheaper to buy than gas cars too. Right now the limited availability of batteries puts limits on EV adoption. That will change in the next few years. Then EVs will be both cheaper to buy and to run than gas cars. The problem of increasing complexity and worse repairability applies to all modern vehicles, regardless of drive train.
The problem of increasing complexity and worse repairability applies to all modern vehicles, regardless of drive train.
EV’s were just the first step of the auto industry fully embracing that all vehicles are luxury, and economy cars just don’t exist anymore.
Golly gee whillickers, it looks like I’m already aware of that.
Also, in the long term EVs will be cheaper to buy than gas cars too.
Once again, not before I fucking die. I’ve been waiting for one most of my adult life.
Right now the limited availability of batteries puts limits on EV adoption. That will change in the next few years.
How, by couping a country with a lot of lithium like Bolivia?
How, by couping a country with a lot of lithium like Bolivia?
For starters… by getting rid of lithium. Alternatives might have a lower energy density in theory but also not the thermal issues of lithium-ion batteries. Which means you can pack them more densely without issues, or -even better- produce bigger cells instead of stacking small ones. So in practice they will perform on a similiar level but cheaper, making lithium-based batteries a niche product for high-end luxury items where you pay much more for a little bit of extra performance.
Next Step: You have batteries that don’t run hot or might explode when damaged anymore? Stop putting them insinde the car but make the battery an integral part of the frame.
And that’s just the theoretical side. The economic reality is that a lot of the benefits of lithium batteries are not based on the tech itself but coming from a decade of experience (and optimizations) in manufacturing. A lot of that experience is partly applicable to alternatives so they will reach a similiar maturity in a fraction of the time (= just a few years).
You can currently get a brand new Chevy Bolt for around $20k.
https://electrek.co/2024/01/03/chevy-bolt-ev-prices-under-20000/
I was able to snag one for 14k if you look around.
That is because economy car buyers figured out that you can buy a used car with all the options, so why buy a new car with less options. In 1970 it made sense to buy a cheap new car as cars back then were so unreliable that a used car was not reliable. These days cars will go a lot longer, so you can buy a nice enough used car and not compromise all the features.
I live in a ski town, people in rentals drive recklessly and crash the things A LOT. I can absolutely understand the decision to switch to cheaper cars.
The US is also far behind on EV infrastructure compared to places like Europe. In Europe, a long roadtrip is now pretty easy to achieve in an EV. Not so much in the US.
Or Canada, with its long stretches of highway and nothing inbetween (which I happen to love, but its not good for EVs … yet anway).
