You know, I often think that Putin is a progressive politician. Just the meaning of progress that exists in the society differs to the one that is in the reality
There is an external definition of “progressive” though, part of which is all about minorities rights. Does he really identify himself with progressivism, or does he just think that he’s correct, maybe even that the still he’s doing is so correct that it’s beyond the scale of progressive vs. conservative philosophies?
In contrast, conservativism is all about “traditional values” and authoritarian thinking. So like a progressive may not like LGBTQ+ stuff but they will defend their right to exist, while a conservative will actively work against their existence and even to take steps to force people to conform (e.g. electroshock therapy).
On the other hand, while Russia seems to be pushing the message of conservativism hard, leaving no room for “progressive” thought, Putin himself may be more of an opportunist and simply uses people and even the whole country as a means towards his own ends of personal gratification. Which at his age is probably to leave behind a legacy that will cause him to be remembered (which will definitely happen, but probably not how he hoped!).
There is an external definition of “progressive” though, part of which is all about minorities rights
I don’t like it. It’s wishful thinking that history progresses in the direction you want.
In contrast, I mean that history is progressing towards more people like Putin and more regions like Russia.
Putin himself may be more of an opportunist and simply uses people and even the whole country as a means towards his own ends of personal gratification
Setting aside whether either of us “like” progressivism - we could get into that but atm I just don’t want to get distracted by it - you might be throwing together the ideas of progress-IVE with progress-ING.
Conservatism can make “progress” too - e.g. abortions are now illegal in many parts of the USA, whereas they were not before, that is a step towards the goal that the conservative Right has had for many decades now. The difference, as I understand it anyway, is that Conservatism want to “return to traditional values”, whereas Liberalism wants to make up new ones, like historically LGBTQ+ were considered bad but liberals want to expand human rights to include the right of each person to choose their own sexuality. Both move in a “direction”, both move “forward”, into the “future”, but conservatives choose their direction as the past, seeing that as good, while liberals choose… as you say, something that came out of wishful thinking, aka a fantasy, that they want to make into reality.
Where I think it gets confusing - to me at least - is when politicians mix it up to claim one thing while doing the exact opposite (or worse, pick and choose a little bit from each side). Like Hillary Clinton despite being a Democrat, was extremely like a conservative (pro-war, pro-big business, having little to no social justice components in her platform iirc, etc.), and George W. Bush despite being a Republican was very much like a liberal (pro-socialism e.g. school funding, feeding the homeless & needy, etc.).
I am no political theorist, but it looks like there is a Theory, and that is where these terms fit, and then there is the Reality, where anything goes:-P.
But anyway, yes you are correct: most parts of the world seem to be advancing towards Authoritarianism. The rise of super-corporations and the effects of globalization and automation probably made that inevitable - after all if corporations are literally more powerful than governments, then the natural reaction of a government is going to want to become stronger, to keep up. But that is progress-ING, not progress-IVE. And Russia in particular had an extremely authoritarian regime before the Bolshevik revolution, so moving away from democracy and towards an autocratic government with Putin or his successor at the helm, is “conservative”, returning to traditional valuations rather than engage in the fantasy play of trying to make a democracy viable.
Which btw is why a lot of people are fleeing Russia right now, to one of those fantasy playgrounds where citizens receive more from their governments. Whether liberalism has any long-term viability remains to be seen, but in the short-term it seems quite attractive, to many people.
Aren’t they all?
Abso-fucking-lutely. Or, at least the smart ones do. But, the crucial point is, not equally so. i.e., some give more back to the People than others, i.e. some are simply better at their jobs. Putin naively believed his advisors when they told him that they would win the Ukranian territory in “3 days”, and now look at what it has cost the nation? Not only does it look increasingly likely that a Russian victory is not inevitable anymore, but as more time passes the cost compounds further and such a “victory” starts to look more and more like an abysmal defeat, in the sense that what was delivered was not as promised.
A ton of people want a “strong” leader, but the hard part is that the mere appearance of strength is not the same thing as the reality of it. Same with Trump in the USA, Boris Johnson in the UK, etc., so I’m not just arbitrarily picking on Putin - as you say it’s a trend progressing across the world right now. Anyway, it’s not that Putin’s message is bad (strength, protection, stability, order), it’s that he is an opportunist who merely claims that he would, but then has actually failed to, deliver upon those promises. And again, Trump failed to deliver upon his as well (mostly), and Boris Johnson too (I mean… Brexit happened, but are people satisfied with that outcome? Polls show that most say they are not, and if they could un-do it they would, but they cannot go back in time).
To my knowledge, there has never been a nation since the American and French Revolutions that has survived as a stable autocratic country for awhile - the cat was let out of the bag, and once people realized that they did not have to bow down as slaves before an overlord, they henceforth refused to. Then again, modern democracies are extremely vulnerable to disinformation campaigns spread by modern technology so… it is not like I am trying to say that one is superior or will win out over the other - in truth I have no idea what will happen:-P - I am just pointing out some components that I do see.
Not really… the white middle class in the US is coming down from their cozy New Deal high and realizing all the “soft power” was literally just empty propaganda. There is a good reason why the US has inspired some of the most evil events of the modern era - Putin cannot hold a candle to that.
We have a low tier propagandist in Russia who tweaked the last paragraph:
“And then they stopped coming. Because everything became normal.”
Jokes aside, last week he got accused of committing some kind of crime. Waiting for him to be jailed and the joke to be finished.
Russia seems like a country where Authoritarianism has “won”, and now the USA looks like it wants to join in on that “fun”. :-|
You know, I often think that Putin is a progressive politician. Just the meaning of progress that exists in the society differs to the one that is in the reality
There is an external definition of “progressive” though, part of which is all about minorities rights. Does he really identify himself with progressivism, or does he just think that he’s correct, maybe even that the still he’s doing is so correct that it’s beyond the scale of progressive vs. conservative philosophies?
In contrast, conservativism is all about “traditional values” and authoritarian thinking. So like a progressive may not like LGBTQ+ stuff but they will defend their right to exist, while a conservative will actively work against their existence and even to take steps to force people to conform (e.g. electroshock therapy).
On the other hand, while Russia seems to be pushing the message of conservativism hard, leaving no room for “progressive” thought, Putin himself may be more of an opportunist and simply uses people and even the whole country as a means towards his own ends of personal gratification. Which at his age is probably to leave behind a legacy that will cause him to be remembered (which will definitely happen, but probably not how he hoped!).
I don’t like it. It’s wishful thinking that history progresses in the direction you want.
In contrast, I mean that history is progressing towards more people like Putin and more regions like Russia.
Aren’t they all?
Setting aside whether either of us “like” progressivism - we could get into that but atm I just don’t want to get distracted by it - you might be throwing together the ideas of progress-IVE with progress-ING.
Conservatism can make “progress” too - e.g. abortions are now illegal in many parts of the USA, whereas they were not before, that is a step towards the goal that the conservative Right has had for many decades now. The difference, as I understand it anyway, is that Conservatism want to “return to traditional values”, whereas Liberalism wants to make up new ones, like historically LGBTQ+ were considered bad but liberals want to expand human rights to include the right of each person to choose their own sexuality. Both move in a “direction”, both move “forward”, into the “future”, but conservatives choose their direction as the past, seeing that as good, while liberals choose… as you say, something that came out of wishful thinking, aka a fantasy, that they want to make into reality.
Where I think it gets confusing - to me at least - is when politicians mix it up to claim one thing while doing the exact opposite (or worse, pick and choose a little bit from each side). Like Hillary Clinton despite being a Democrat, was extremely like a conservative (pro-war, pro-big business, having little to no social justice components in her platform iirc, etc.), and George W. Bush despite being a Republican was very much like a liberal (pro-socialism e.g. school funding, feeding the homeless & needy, etc.).
I am no political theorist, but it looks like there is a Theory, and that is where these terms fit, and then there is the Reality, where anything goes:-P.
But anyway, yes you are correct: most parts of the world seem to be advancing towards Authoritarianism. The rise of super-corporations and the effects of globalization and automation probably made that inevitable - after all if corporations are literally more powerful than governments, then the natural reaction of a government is going to want to become stronger, to keep up. But that is progress-ING, not progress-IVE. And Russia in particular had an extremely authoritarian regime before the Bolshevik revolution, so moving away from democracy and towards an autocratic government with Putin or his successor at the helm, is “conservative”, returning to traditional valuations rather than engage in the fantasy play of trying to make a democracy viable.
Which btw is why a lot of people are fleeing Russia right now, to one of those fantasy playgrounds where citizens receive more from their governments. Whether liberalism has any long-term viability remains to be seen, but in the short-term it seems quite attractive, to many people.
Abso-fucking-lutely. Or, at least the smart ones do. But, the crucial point is, not equally so. i.e., some give more back to the People than others, i.e. some are simply better at their jobs. Putin naively believed his advisors when they told him that they would win the Ukranian territory in “3 days”, and now look at what it has cost the nation? Not only does it look increasingly likely that a Russian victory is not inevitable anymore, but as more time passes the cost compounds further and such a “victory” starts to look more and more like an abysmal defeat, in the sense that what was delivered was not as promised.
A ton of people want a “strong” leader, but the hard part is that the mere appearance of strength is not the same thing as the reality of it. Same with Trump in the USA, Boris Johnson in the UK, etc., so I’m not just arbitrarily picking on Putin - as you say it’s a trend progressing across the world right now. Anyway, it’s not that Putin’s message is bad (strength, protection, stability, order), it’s that he is an opportunist who merely claims that he would, but then has actually failed to, deliver upon those promises. And again, Trump failed to deliver upon his as well (mostly), and Boris Johnson too (I mean… Brexit happened, but are people satisfied with that outcome? Polls show that most say they are not, and if they could un-do it they would, but they cannot go back in time).
To my knowledge, there has never been a nation since the American and French Revolutions that has survived as a stable autocratic country for awhile - the cat was let out of the bag, and once people realized that they did not have to bow down as slaves before an overlord, they henceforth refused to. Then again, modern democracies are extremely vulnerable to disinformation campaigns spread by modern technology so… it is not like I am trying to say that one is superior or will win out over the other - in truth I have no idea what will happen:-P - I am just pointing out some components that I do see.
The US joined that club before the ink on the constitution had dried. It has never left.
Okay so now the USA looks like it wants to join in more on that "fun"😄
Not really… the white middle class in the US is coming down from their cozy New Deal high and realizing all the “soft power” was literally just empty propaganda. There is a good reason why the US has inspired some of the most evil events of the modern era - Putin cannot hold a candle to that.
I am pretty sure that genocide is bad - even when the USA/Russia/China/Israel/Palestine/other country of choice supports it.