A problem easily solved by having mandatory pronoun tag. Hexbear stays winnning.
A problem easily solved by
You can combine these, nothing reveals reactionaries more reliably than being shown a pronoun tag, they immediately start frothing.
Announce mandatory pronoun tags
Record the users who downvote the announcement
Ban them
Enters a room full of trans people
Misgenders everyone
Well actually male is the default so
is this solidarity?
I wish I could speak to another trans femme without them bringing up and gushing over fucking contrapoints, philosophy tube or some other
breadtuber.That instance feels like it’s full of those types who talk down to you about their paper thin understanding of politics and social justice because “CONTRAPOINTS SAID SO!” or fucking Philosophy Tube ergghhhhhhh
and if you have a take left of starmer they scream authoritarian.Gunna go in for a hard read now on blahaj.zone so bare with me.
BEING A MINORITY DOESN’T MAKE YOU A DECENT PERSON OR MAKE YOU MAGICALLY UNDERSTAND SOCIAL JUSTICE. LOG OFF AND READ A BOOK!
I don’t hate philosophy tube etc to be clear, I just find their videos to be self indulgent slop and her fan base to consistently be insufferable privileged and chauvinistic liberal white trans femmes that usually speak for others (themselves, they ignore anyone else trans) and are kinda problematic vs recognising there’s a thousands more of us who don’t earn dollar doing software dev and that our needs and material conditions are just as important as their own.
BEING A MINORITY DOESN’T MAKE YOU A DECENT PERSON OR MAKE YOU MAGICALLY UNDERSTAND SOCIAL JUSTICE. LOG OFF AND READ A BOOK!
More neurodivergent queer CIA ghouls does not a liberated society make.
Neurotypical under capitalism just means passive wage slave.
Western psychology try not to undermine it’s own field of study by ignoring capitalisms impact on people’s mental health challenge: impossible
I mean, Freud’s greatest intervention was recognizing that “normative” is constructed and contingent on social norms (his “primitive society” being so depraved especially helps us see it). Even though dude was entirely wrong about everything biological, etc, you’d think the field would recognize what he got right and build on it, instead of, ironically, repressing its greatest potential.
Yeah I remember learning about some of his theories and everyone saying he was a complete hack but as you say, he got stuff right, it’s just the stuff he got right undermines our current system so is ignored and the stuff he got wrong overshadows it OR props up the status quo and people cherry pick it.
i think the problem with freud is that, outside of some lit studies, he isn’t really approached from a sociocultural perspective anymore. all of his most prominent theories, at least in pop culture, has been tossed into this grotesque wellness machine where they’re at best treated as tools to achieve personal happiness, and at worst used to erase the web of social relations and material conditions that forms an individual
Omg wellness training noooooo don’t bring it up it burns 😫
As a trans person stuck in a highly transmed, gatekeepy and pathologizing healthcare system, i’ve been through my share of psychotherapists (not really, i will have to go through at least two more ffs) and Freudians are the fucking worst. I mean, that’s not entirely correct, Jungians appear to be the same but nazi and i’m glad i never had a run-in with one of those freaks, but jfc do Freudians make my skin crawl. And when i ask around in local trans groups, hey, what’s your experience with this and that guy, yeah, the psychoanalytically oriented ones aren’t the ones any of us trust.
I get it, he’s got some nice ideas when he’s not doing his straight ass pulls and blatant mysogyny, he’s also an excellent prose writer and the charm of his Vienesse German even carries over into the English translations, i can give him credit for a lot of things. A lot of things outside of psychology. Yes, he was right about the constructedness of social norms, but you do not need Freud for that, any psychologist with the tiniest bit of background in leftist acedemia understands that part already, it’s been kind of at the center of all humanities for the last decades. Psychology doesn’t need more Freud, it needs more intersectional anticapitalism to understand that some people just have entirely different experiences than those within the normative framework that defines the illusion of normalcy in our system. And i know a psychologist who does that, and she’s got nothing to do with Freud, she just does the usual evidence-based cognitive behavorial therapy slop, but she’s read enough feminist theory and queer theory and anti-racist theory to understand where her biases lie and how to treat people correctly when their very existence is at odds with how society is “supposed” to work, and i’ve never seen anything like that from a Freudian, even though there’s ofc Freudian leftists. But even those appear to be permanently stuck with overvaluing and centering the experience and the intellectual idiosyncrasies of a single cishet dude that are just super fucking misleading about how the human mind works, that perpetuate a very lopsided and hierarchical doctor-patient relation and that mostly work on making the wildest assumptions about your patients and always one-upping and controlling them.
My special interest is bombing brown people
When they get older they’ll be heartless tankies don’t worry
They fucking better be 😤 I’ll be disappointed otherwise and upsetting me is a crime.
i feel like its generally the case. the longer youve been on hrt the more likely you are to be hard left. mostly because the longer the time youve been acting on being trans, the longer society has had to discriminate against you in some egregious way.
the longer youve been on hrt the more likely you are to be hard left. mostly because the longer the time youve been acting on being trans, the longer society has had to discriminate against you in some egregious way.
I can’t agree with this at all, as an ethnic minority I have seen way too many reactionaries among those who have been oppressed their entire lives.
Being a minority and having direct experience of discrimination do increase one’s revolutionary potential, but class also plays a substantial role (I’d argue an even larger one just from personal experience) as well as the ideological superstructures being imposed upon us.
Ultimately there are a lot of collaborationists across every segment of minorities, both within the imperial core and in the global south.
racism and trans stuff are similar in some ways but different in others, i think its not really right to equate them, very different experiences. the basic rub of it is there is a nonstop media campaign targeting trans people with blatant lies, the history of our community is largely embedded in socialist movements in america, there are inherent medical costs to most transitions, there are inherent painful and traumatizing sensations that you can open yourself to if you seek surgery, a possibility of familial ostracization, there is often a whiplash where you go from not being discriminated to discriminated (or vice versa, or discriminated on a new and different basis), and of course its likely that people have been physically and emotionally aggressive with you no matter what community youre in.
and then there are discriminatory acts in healthcare and so on, but these forms of discrimination can manifest in different and similar ways for poc, so a little complex there.
its still my experience that the vast majority of trans people are socialist and people become more active with socialist orgs the longer theyve been transitioned. i also think the fact that our community spans multiple ethnicities also has a factor in this rate of socialism, we all experience similar pains and have many things that unify us. and of course there are some shitty trans people out there, not saying there arent, but i feel like people are greatly overstating how many people are shitty in this thread.
I remember when I was still relatively fresh in my transition being introduced to another trans woman back in like the early 2010s and had been “out” for a few years but had only still recently gone full time, didn’t even have my name change done because I didn’t have the ~400 dollars to make it happen and I was so taken aback that she said outright “oh I’m a communist.” Was a bit of a major moment for me. I had a lot of seeds planted over the years between Occupy and just the financial crash but was still very much a lib. As time went on and suddenly the word socialism became less toxic it was a relatively quick shift to make, suddenly all those seeds ended up sprouting and it all just clicked together finally. Having more lived experience as trans and having come across a few people online and IRL that helped demystify it all really did help and I think that’s also a relatively big portion of it. We’re pushed towards the contradictions with our lived experiences while a solid portion of the community is already there able to explain the contradictions and demystify leftism.
I also remember early on despising the trans community because the communities I ended up finding were full of trans-medicalists and boomers with all the liberal trappings to be had. Completely exiled myself from trans discussions and attempted to never even mention it in any contexts. Finding /r/traaa was an opportunity to actually see more of the trans community and be happy with being trans and ended up kinda just being fine with being visibly trans, though it still sucks that people are shit. I do think the communities we build and the attitudes we allow are just as important as the lived experiences lest you have libs come in and try to paint it over leaving you wanting to just disconnect entirely because their answers suck.
another trans woman back in like the early 2010s and had been “out” for a few years but had only still recently gone full time, didn’t even have my name change done because I didn’t have the ~400 dollars to make it happen and I was so taken aback that she said outright “oh I’m a communist.”
lmao was it me?
I also remember early on despising the trans community because the communities I ended up finding were full of trans-medicalists and boomers with all the liberal trappings to be had.
yeah i remember thinking similar, but you should also take some of the stuff on reddit with a grain of salt, liberals trawl trans subreddits and upvote liberal trans people and downvote socialists regularly. really amplifies what is really a minority opinion among the larger trans community. you can tell by how many comments have a socialist bent but all the upvotes go to the one liberal opinion
I hope you are correct but my
side can’t ignore the sheer amount of dickheads I’ve met and felt they were a lost cause which I try not to do as that feels scummy.I think I’m just in my sad tankie phase when it comes to class consciousness and my own communities politics atm irl (anyway)
gotta remember that generally people tune out of trans spaces the longer theyve been on hrt. so a lot of trans communities are new transitioners and the long-transitioned and few ‘moms, dads, and vague parental figures’ that guide them to resources and pool the knowledge.
I’m still only a year in so would you say I’m in my leaving the nest phase?
still young, id say 4-5ish years on is when most people begin to radicalize a lot. though most are some sort of socialist anyways, they just become more serious about it
the online trans space to living your life pipeline
The sad tankie phase is completely avoidable. Most of the ones you encounter online lack praxis. Active socialist practice in your community is inherently rewarding.
Class consciousness might not exist in our local communities in the way we would want to see it, but it is there.
There are entirely too many fascists trans people for me to accept this argument.
fascist trans people are an extreme minority. ive only met 1 irl and we booted them from our local org, what was strange is they were also a finnish immigrant. ive interacted with 1000+ trans people in a fairly large city at this point. something around 90% are socialist, but most are not acting on that and are unorganized. i run an informal survey on a lot of things so we know how to help people more at our trans resources booth.
Oh no I’m not saying they’re anything but a minority. But they exist, and there’s too many of them. (Although tbh 1 would be too many in a general sense)
it is pretty weird. the only reason we caught on that she was fascist is she started harping on jewish people after someone mentioned they were jewish
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what? its common practice that most trans spaces have a pronoun sticker printer for neopronouns
i feel like its generally the case. the longer youve been on hrt the more likely you are to be hard left. mostly because the longer the time youve been acting on being trans, the longer society has had to discriminate against you in some egregious way.
In my experience this depends on stealth vs not-stealth. The stealth people wanting to blend and capable of it tend to deradicalise because they can fit into existing society, those that can not tend to hyper-radicalise because they need society to change for them.
maybe. i pass and i gotta tell you im never forgetting how people treated me in vulnerable moments
also there are plenty of times where im forced to out myself, particularly when dealing with insurance and medical, and i pretty much always get a sour and many times visceral reception because people feel ‘tricked’. i had a nurse very unprofessionally yell ‘WHAT’ at the top of her lungs when i was explaining i was trans and my basic medical history
I’m in a similar place currently, kinda, maybe, not really, i dunno.
I’ve had trans friends literally project their self hatred onto me because they resent that I “pass” (like i fucking do) and tell me bogus shit like I can’t get oestrogen because of x and y which lead me to sob to my doctor in a place of genuine suicidal intent because of what I’d been led to believe.
Lmao turns out it was bollocks what they said and here I am a year later happy af.
Problem is i’m still riddled with a lot of the misogynistic self hatred that my ex friend filled my head with like this feature is too masculine etc. I know she was wrong and why its all wrong but a year of shit like that and comments like “well you’re lucky your short unlike the rest of us” has made me feel super isolated and kinda low Key assimilatey when I’m around cis people.
Like I’m loud and proud and always ready to defend my community but if I’m genuinely passing I can’t help but enjoy it and soak it up like its validating the broken part of my self confidence issues or something.
I dunno, I still hear her voice in my head when I hate my reflection because I hyper focus on the things she did and its so hard so when I do pass I do stealth it and really enjoy it.
Does that make me a bad trans person?
Either way i wouldn’t ever defend assimilators and resent the idea that I would be one but at the same time I enjoy not having to be trans and that leaves me feeling kinda guilty.
yeah people fucking with you over whether you pass or not sucks. i had a family member claim i dont even though i havent been misgendered by randoms in like 8 years. pretty sure they were just being a spiteful asshole, they couldnt point out whyWhen people keep telling you that you pass, you most likely do, and you’re most likely hella cute as well, because people conflate high passing and being conventionally attractive a lot. And some people, including a lot of trans women, just can’t handle that. Our society teaches women to constantly monitor each others beauty and put each other down both when we’re not pretty enough and too pretty, we’re forced to constantly square the circle, to navigate this ridiculously narrow corridor between supposedly being an unsightly mess and supposedly being a shallow skank. And like most of mysogyny, that gets amplified further when you’re trans. I keep hearing stories like yours and they’re always from really beautiful trans girls who are resented for looking conventionally hotter or more cis-like than the person putting them down. Like, i just met this super cute trans girl and took her to a local meetup because she was afraid to go alone after some other trans woman had trash talked her for not doing enough about her voice at another get-together years ago - not only is that a horrible demand in general, voice work is hard and not everybody has the talent or the ressources or the time or the lack of voice dysphoria to pull through with it, no, she actually has a lovely voice, low-pitched but very smooth and feminine, a voice i could listen to all evening. But that other woman saw her and probably felt threatened and had to lash out. I had to think of that when you wrote about your ex.
And no, you’re absolutely not a bad trans person for stealthing once in a while. It’s a scary time we live in, and while it’s important that we’re visible and outspoken and let people know we’re actual human beings they know and not just some abstract “gender ideology”, it’s hard to be visible 24/7. When you put yourself out there most of the time, and when you reflect the way you do when you do that, and give people the opportunity to learn, that’s more than enough. From each according to their abilities also goes for activism, and there’s no shame in not wanting to be in the trenches permanently. Our survival and continued existence in itself constitutes a revolutionary act. Reaction wants us dead and being alive as a trans person and living your best life in itself defies the necropolitics of today’s fossil capitalism. Being able to take a break from the struggle is a form of privilege, as is being able to transition at all, or having enough money to pay out of pocket for surgeries, or living in a place with easier access to public trans health care, or being educated and able to articulate your existence in a convincing way, or being binary trans, or having had a supportive home and being able to accept yourself in ways other people can’t because their parents didn’t give them the love they would’ve deserved, or being a white trans person, or living in an area that makes it easier to access queer networks, but none of these are things you shouldn’t use as tools for your survival if you’re lucky enough to have them at your disposal. Cisfascism wants all of us dead, and we have a right to fight bacvk against it with anything we have at our hands, we should just be aware of and mindful towards people who don’t share some of our privilege instead of throwing them under the bus like the actual assimilationists do.
I find most video essayists exhausting. Critiquing culture and media is incredibly easy. Anyone can read some philosophy books and sound authoritative to someone who’s never read anything
Flash that you’ve read Das Kapital and a quick wink wink nod nod to appease the libs and you’ve immediately captured the entirety of the “actual left” in the west 😮💨
Meanwhile the REAL left are on here posting PPB 💅
I find most video essayists exhausting. Critiquing culture and media is incredibly easy.
One of my favorite and only exceptions to this is Alexander Avilla, his videos on autism self-diagnosis and queerbaiting were legitimately life-changing for me. The way he focuses on theory more and actually understands it is just so refreshing.
I always thought Philosophy Tube was just hiding her power level for a lib audience.
She’s so based and down to earth anon!!! You’re just salty because you aren’t rich!!
literally acts like a fucking MP
Fr tho I think she de-fangs a lot of revolutionary potential in her fanbase by giving them a comfy lib adjacent take for them to cling to. I get it, I just don’t like it.
I don’t hate philosophy tube etc to be clear
Then you should probably edit that you’ve misgendered her in that same sentence. Fucking gross, and it hurts doubly when it’s coming from another trans woman.
Where?! Are you being serious? I genuinely don’t get where I’ve misgendered her?
Oi! don’t fucking drop accusations like that without an example, I’m having a panic attack over this now.
Do you mean using their as the posessive to mean HER videos?
I’m sorry but I literally called her she in the same sentence and that should tell anyone I’m referring to what she owns or made and not her fucking gender.
Im sorry but you’ve absolutely read that the worst most bad faith way to the point it feels intentional.
You’ve even fucking spoken to me on here in comments and can view my past comments so i don’t get why you’ve chosen to jump on me for what is (according to two other commenters) bad grammar and paint me as someone who would misgender their own community.
Reaching dickhead.
Fucking gross, and it hurts doubly when it’s coming from another trans women, how can you do that to one of us?
Politely what’s your fucking problem?
Where?! Are you being serious?
I was, i either overlooked the “etc.” or somehow didn’t infer from it that you meant a plural “they”. I’m super fucking sorry for this. It was an honest mistake, and if you re-read that sentence in question and leave out the “etc.”, you can probably imagine how i came to these conclusions and how it felt to believe that a trans comrade did that kind of thing to another trans person.
Once more, i’m really really sorry for misreading you, and for causing that amount of distress. It’s always a particularly awful kind of pain when people from within the community jump at you with such accusations when they’re in the wrong, i know what that’s like, and i should’ve taken a second and reread your sentence before posting to avoid putting you through that kind of shit. That was negligent and careless of me and i should’ve given you more of a benefit of the doubt and double-checked what you wrote. Do you want me to edit that comment or should i leave it up? I really want to make this right and if you want me to remove or edit the comment, it’s the least i can do.
So for context this triggered my BPD giga hard and I’m still seething about it because being misrepresented as something I’m not specificially hits harder than other triggers and turns me into an endless firecracker of vitriol and defense mechanisms. As you well know being misrepresented by the media, the cis and trans libs cuts like a rusty blade and makes you feel alone when it comes from your own community.
So with that the above for context please understand my following reply with my current meltdown and emotional state considered:
Get fucked, try again another time.
You’re absolutely right, i’ll fuck off and leave you alone. If there’s anything you want to tell, you can DM me or message me openly at any point, but i get this isn’t a time where i can do anything to mend the harm i’ve caused and i’m out of here.
Both you and Tastysnack clearly have the best interest of yourselves and fellow trans comrades at heart. Sometimes passions can run hot, and we are reminded of the importance of solidarity. <3
❤️
generally dont consider using they/them to be misgendering tbh, i default to it in trans spaces when i dont know someones gender. but its clearly being used in the plural here
generally dont consider using they/them to be misgendering tbh
I’m making exceptions for when pronouns are unknown, or when you’re talking about people in general, and ofc for plural they like in this case that i’ve completely gotten wrong, but once we’re adressing known individuals who’ve stated their pronouns, i’m under the very firm assumption that if these people would be fine with they / them, they would state it as a secondary set of pronouns. When people do not do that, i will never use a singular they / them on them just as i wouldn’t he / him or she / her them if these aren’t their pronouns. I know there’s a bunch of folks both cis and trans who see this different than me and don’t mind it, but there absolutely are trans people who find it highly offensive and hurtful, including myself, and also including PhilosophyTube, who will block anybody they / theming her. British terfs are extremly fond of using they / them to deniably misgender binary trans people, too, it’s defintily not without its problems.
but its clearly being used in the plural here
It absolutely is, i hope @Tastysnack@hexbear.net sees my apology in time and that it helps her at least a bit. She sounded so upset, it’s horrible i’ve wronged her like this.
Given the “etc”, I believe the use of “their” is meant as a plural pronoun, not a gender-neutral singular pronoun. Tastysnack’s last paragraph isn’t a case of misgendering but rather imperfect grammar, something we’ve all been guilty of.
Wait I thought their could be used to mean owning something? Is that wrong?
I thought you were using “their” as plural possessive, but it’s been a long time since I’ve been in an English class, ha. What’s important is that I understand you’re respecting people’s pronouns, regardless of the holes in our knowledge of grammar. :)
I thought that was grammatically correct especially since I used she like 3 or 4 words later specifically to refer to abigail and didn’t misgender her once or anyone ever.
That said I can with a slowly clearing mind post meltdown see that it could be construed as catty. disingenuous or outright erasure especially since I was ranting about her content and that hers would of being a better choice to avoid any misunderstanding.
In the end even having your he or she pronouns invalidated subtly by a lib using they can hurt when you know they are doing it out of spite and while I’d never do that, my choice of words can be construed as such maybe (if you squint and paint me as the opposite person to what my account behaviour would suggest) and I certainly won’t be making that mistake again.
Besides I’m shit at English and grammar so maybe I should stick to simple words and grammar anyway 😅
You were correct. Etc makes it plural here, so you should use “their” rather than the singular “her”. If there was an issue, it was the following conjunct [items combined with an “and”] being in reference to “her,” seemingly dropping the etc. Shorter sentences do make things easier, but I can never tell someone to do that since every sentence I write is run-on.
Errggghhhh my own first language is a joke. Japanese grammar makes more sense than this.
The “etc.” makes it plural, so the “their” is not misgendering because it refers to the trans breadtuber clique and not one of them in particular.
Philosophy tube etc. are a group of people. they/them is the correct pronoun to use for a group of people.
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I don’t hate philosophy tube etc to be clear, I just find their videos to be self indulgent slop
I don’t disagree, but I think she and contra hold a special place in my heart cause they were really the start to my radicalization. Contra’s earlier videos really got me thinking outside of a capitalist mindset and got me to think “oh, there’s alternatives to capitalism, and gender, and blah blah blah”, then I read the manifesto, then I started listening to Teach Me Communism, and then I became a chronically online tankie lol. I feel like I’m not the onlyyyy one that did this (I have friends who I think consider themselves socialist and anticapitalist who still like some of Contra’s newer stuff), but I definitely feel like the vast majority of her fanbase is annoyingly liberal to a fault. In her recent ‘anti-JK Rowling’ lane she’s been pretty decent I think except for when she steps even slightly out of it.
Yeah and that’s great!
I dunno breadtube always annoyed me and most of the insufferable soc dem libs I know swear by it so I’m probably injecting a lot of bias into this in hindsight but…ARRRRRGGGGGHHHHHHHH
Removing criticism of transphobia because “the evil hexbears” is fucking wild.
Placing anticommunism above transphobia on your priorities list guarantees a slide into fascism. Once you start covering up and defending bigotry as long as the bigots are anticommunists you give the perfect cover for fascists to fuck around in your space. By the time a server owner realises that they’ve made everyone non-fascist leave (or conform to the culture they create thus becoming part of them) they end up just accepting it because doing anything about it would mean killing the entire community population. Because the narcissistic power of being community owner comes first.
they’re prioritizing anti-leftism over transphobia on an instance literally named after a transgender shark lmfao
I agree with you and you’re being really correct, but narcissistic is a slur. The origin of the word comes from the disability Narcissistic Personality Disorder. You’re obvious talking about neurotypical behaviour, so could you use a different word?
The origin of the word actually comes from the Greek myth, and vastly predates the disorder but I’m going to assume you’re just trolling.
Bad take, that’s fucking dumb and you know it, the common usage of the term relates to the disorder not the mythological character.
we ban calling people a sch*zo here, why shouldn’t we ban calling someone a narcissist?As someone who used to have a personality disorder, I have a really hard time buying that they are akin to either neurodivergence or disability.
Like, personality disorders are generally defined as a set of maladaptive behaviors and symptoms that are in no way essential to a who a person is, but can be incredibly damaging to both the person and the people around them.
In my opinion, having words that precisely describe the disordered nature of these behaviors is necessary for both the person with the behaviors and the people they may have victimized. I’m highly skeptical of medicalization and strict diagnostic categories and whatnot, but words like narcissism have a tremendous amount of utility both for people raised by abusive parents trying to understand their behavior, as well as people who may exhibit these behaviors and need to realize they’re toxic and should be worked on (I was both).
It’s not the same as having different abilities or focus levels or whatever, the toxic behaviors should not in any way be tolerated. And they very much can be relearned given the right resources and a willingness to do so.
Personality disorders are divergences from normal patterns of thought and behaviour. In plenty of cases, they are caused by physical differences in the brain.
They are definitionally neurodivergance, and become disability when the resulting behaviours impact an individual’s ability to function normally in society.To avoid getting into a semantic debate, the essence of what I’m saying is there is systemic, oppressive otherization experienced by people who are neurodivergent or differently abled. Then there are people who (because of childhood trauma or for whatever reason) develop maladaptive behaviors and cognitive distortions that affect their ability to have healthy interpersonal relationships. The usage of certain words to describe the former can be problematic when the words serve to reassert systemic otherization or dehumanization. Whereas in my opinion words that describe toxic interpersonal behaviors aren’t doing so. Thus narcissist isn’t a slur and we don’t need to be careful to tolerate “different” (read:toxic) behaviors like we should tolerate different capabilities and inherent, unchangeable characteristics that define people.
Well, you said that the word narcissist is useful because it helps people identify abusive parents. Which would imply you think there’s some connection between being an abuser and having NPD. So the fact that you think a mental disorder is responsible for abuse is an example of that systemic, oppressive otherization that we narcissists experience. I was told by a former friend that I don’t deserve to live, because narcissists don’t have a shred of humanity. Is that not oppressive otherisation to you?
I agree that it’s not desirable to conflate the two in common usage, but I don’t really see how that can be done while continuing to use those specific terms.
What constitutes toxic behaviour is culturally subjective. Many people in the first group would have been considered a part of the second not so long ago.
In this case narcissist is being used as a general insult for someone where we have no indication whether she’s a narcissist or not.
we don’t ban the word because it could have general use for someone who’s actually a narcissist in the same way we don’t ban the word schizophrenic except when it’s used as an insult
My contest is with the idea that the medicalized category and its label takes supremacy over any behavior that uses the same label, especially when the specific behavior in question is defined by its problematic nature.
In crystalizing this issue, I can maybe agree calling someone a narcissist isn’t ideal because it reasserts the existence and immutability of the category (which I and others believe is institutionally/socially constructed, not real in and of itself). But even so, the behaviors that define the word are not something I think should be tolerated or accepted, both due to their harmful nature and their ability to be relearned.
I find the claim that you used to have a personality disorder dubious, unless you’re saying it like Mitch Hedburg said he used to do drugs. Personality disorders are incurable and lifelong. Symptoms are often mitigated with therapy and age, but those are the result of learning to live with a disability, not curing it.
Could you say what personality disorder you used to have?
I was diagnosed with borderline personality disorder. After years of therapy and multifaceted self-work, I no longer exhibit enough symptoms/behaviors to meet the DSM criteria. I know one person irl and multiple people online with somewhat similar experiences.
I’m agnostic about the label for various reasons, I don’t care that much if someone describes me as a borderline person with coping mechanisms or a “cured” borderline person or doesn’t mention it all. There’s things I still have to work on, things that still are harder for me than they might be for other people. But I’ve gotten to the point where it doesn’t define me or my interpersonal relationships very much. So I tend to say “used to” because it more accurately conveys my experience with it.
Ultimately I’m skeptical that the categories actually exist in nature. I’m more inclined to believe there’s a wide array of behaviors that may be maladaptive, that the DSM categorizes largely for insurance purposes. There’s certainly utility in using the words to group maladaptive behaviors that commonly go together, so that people experiencing them can find help and so that treatments can be explored. It’s useful to put a name to an experience. Like, being able to search “borderline” and come up with communities of people, descriptions of patterns and distortions I wasn’t aware of, theoretical treatments, etc-- that was useful. But identifying permanently as a borderline person-- unchangeable, always gonna be this way, this is who I am– seemed like a self-fulfilling prophesy. Also ignores neuroplasticity and cognitive therapy and narrative therapy etc.
Here are the top 4 google results for “Can BPD be cured?”:
Borderline personality disorder (BPD) cannot be cured, and anyone who enters treatment looking for a quick and easy fix is bound to be disappointed. However, with treatment the symptoms of BPD can be effectively managed, monitored, and ultimately reduced in intensity, or entirely eliminated.
https://www.verywellmind.com/is-there-a-cure-for-borderline-personality-disorder-425468
While there is no definitive cure for BPD, it is absolutely treatable.1 Lenzenweger MF, Lane MC, Loranger AW, Kessler RC. DSM-IV personality disorders in the National Comorbidity Survey Replication. Biol Psychiatry. 2007;62(6):553-564. doi:10.1016/j.biopsych.2006.09.019 In fact, with the right treatment approach, you can be well on the road to recovery and remission.
While remission and recovery are not necessarily a “cure,” both constitute the successful treatment of BPD.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4500179/
Research during the past 2 decades has clearly demonstrated that BPD has a positive trajectory over time. Although it is a disorder associated with many psychiatric and medical comorbidities, many of the most troubling symptoms remit during the first few years. Unfortunately, several of the underlying personality traits remain for longer periods, and these are the elements of the disorder that may not be fully addressed by current treatments.
https://embarkbh.com/blog/borderline-personality-disorder/ask-a-therapist-can-bpd-be-cured/
While BPD can’t be cured and won’t go away, Gatlin said the prognosis can be good for those who are going to therapy and taking medication, if needed, to manage their symptoms. She noted that a key milestone is when a young adult reaches their mid to late 20s, as that’s when the brain finishes developing. Once that process is complete, your son or daughter can better navigate their mental health.
Look at it this way: Imagine your leg was amputated and you had to get a prosthetic. With time, and physical therapy, and a leg that matches your needs, you’ll eventually be able to walk, run, and jump again. But you’ll always rely on the prosthetic leg, and there are some things you’ll never be able to do. You might have a leg that’s better for soccer and a leg that’s better for sprinting, and you’ll need to switch legs to keep up with two-legged athletes. And you might end up surpassing two-legged athletes at some things. It’s still a disability, you’re still disabled, but it’s effectively treated. My NPD and your BPD are like that missing leg. We have tools to solve our problems, and we can get really good at using them, but the fact we still need them means we’re still disabled. And at the end of the day, no amount of skill is going to help us if a fully abled person decides that today they hate “cripples”, or they hate “borderlines”, or they hate “narcs”.
I find the claim that you used to have a personality disorder dubious,
I find your faith in DSM categorizations misplaced. There are lots of places where the DSM fails to have any sort of mechanistic idea of what it labels a disorder (just a diagnostic one) and thereby no real ability to say whether it is curable or not.
I find the claim that you used to have a personality disorder dubious
don’t do this comrade.
Narcissus is a Greek name. Narcissistic is an english word. The ancient greeks did not call anything narcissistic, because the word didn’t exist.
The N word comes from Spanish but people who use it aren’t speaking spanish, are they?
The English word “narcissistic” existed long before the diagnosis, just like “Sisyphean” exists without an attached disorder (ODD in another timeliness, maybe).
I find your claim dubious, but in any case, the N word existed in english before it became a slur too. But centuries of racial abuse made it into a slur
Why do you think the N word existed in English as anything but a slur? Narcissism and narcissistic personality disorder are not equal. I’m open to changing terminology if it’s doing harm, but I think this one needs to be that the term for NPD should likely change. From what I know (and correct me if I’m wrong please), the common usage of “narcissism” has very little to do with NPD, which was coined later and seems almost derogatory in itself (in effect, grouping those with NPD along with the type of asshole commonly called narcissists)
Edit: I have been convinced that this story I was told was wrong about NPD. There doesn’t seem to be a usage of narcissism outside of attempted psychological prescription before 1900 in english, and only first in 1899 in German which caused its use in English.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/*removed*#Etymology_and_history
This says first use in english was 1574, first derogatory use was 1775
The common use of narcissism in the vernacular originates with Christopher Lasch’s book The Culture Of Narcissism, which put forward the thesis that NPD was becoming more normalised in contemporary america. That book inspired self help guru hacks to sell books which told people that all their problems are caused by people with NPD holding them back and abusing them. People love being told that all their problems are caused by a vulnerable minority that seeks to destroy them, that’s how Hitler got into power. So anyway, these books inspired the idea that everyone’s abusive parents and bosses and partners are narcissists, and once that happened, more and more people started drawing on this growing linguistic awareness of the word narcissist, generally falling into one of two camps: Either they hate people with NPD and think we’re all abusive, or they don’t know the history of the word and just repeat it without thinking. And those two groups sound identical when they throw the word about as an insult. When I call out use of the slur, I never know which of the two groups I’m about to have an argument with. Sometimes it’s both.
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An English word that existed long before anyone was ever diagnosed with NPD. I’m very sorry for your diagnosis but trying to make an entire existing word unusable for everyone else is kinda the definition of narcissistic also.
X to doubt on your claim there, but why does that matter? The N word and the R word existed before they were slurs too. Are you going to apply the same logic there or do you have a unique hatred for pwNPD?
You doubt that a word meaning “like Narcissus” was used to describe behaviour similar to the popular thousands of years old mythological figure, before modern psychological science used it to describe a personality disorder?
Yes. I’m also going to doubt that anybody in this thread was speaking Greek when they used the word narcissist, given that all these comments are in english.
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Wouldn’t choosing to maintain the fake sense of status that running an online community creates instead of deleting it because of the harm it does or will do definitionally narcissistic? Or is there a requirement here for such actions to be a lifelong pattern?
i would just change it to self-centered. this is an online topic that’s not worth the argument and also narcissism unfortunately does have lightly ableist connotations now since the word has now been medicalized
i think calling people narcissists is kind of a
ism in general and should be abandoned entirely for that reason when as you said ‘self-centred’ accomplishes the same aims.
Narcissists are only 1% of the population, yet we see this behaviour from anyone who owns a large platform. Unless you want to present the thesis that people with NPD are privileged because we own all the social media sites, we must conclude that this pattern of behaviour is common to neurotypicals as well.
narcissism doesn’t have to be disruptive enough of a persons’ life to be a disorder diagnosis. Should we start calling anxious feelings something else because some people have severe anxiety that we label a disorder? petty narcissism isn’t the same as NPD and this is the first time i’ve seen someone try to equate the two.
I’m not really against moving off the word I just feel a bit odd about it. Like you point out.
I think with anxiety there’s a small difference in that it’s never used perjoratively. Whereas narcissism is. But I agree with you that if anxiety can be used descriptively for a type of behaviour without meeting the standards for it being a disorder narcisisstic behaviour can be the same thing without meeting the standard.
In the same way anxiety could also be replace with “uncomfortable” or “scared” but this would not be as strong in tone, not really describing the seriousness of the emotion. In this same way narcissism shares that.
Again though, not really a hill I’d die on or anything. It is certainly overused for even incredibly minor things at times.
Well, slowness doesn’t have to be severe enough to be considered intellectual disability, but the R word is still a slur. And tan skin doesn’t have to be dark enough to cause racial prejudice, but the N word is still a slur. It seems that from our pre-existing examples, the answer is that if people are going to use “narcissist” as a pejorative it’s a slur
Again how is anxious not a slur or at least appropriative in your definition, seeing that it follows a very similar pattern of standard use followed by use in medical settings
Because it doesn’t have a pattern of pejorative use. A slur is created when a word is consistently used to express hatred. Hatred of anxiety sufferrers is much less than that of narcissists. It’s largely confined to jokes about people being “triggered”. Whereas people wish death on narcissists with regularity.
By analogy, there is a reason that megalomaniac are more likely to be corporate ghouls or sociopaths are more likely to be cops, there is an element of self-selection.
Nah I think it’s moreso the use of the word, but I’ve only ever known of it by that term; I’m not sure what other label would exist for it.
Well the word for self-interested behaviour is “selfish”
or egocentric
Egocentrism is something else. You’re probably thinking of egotistical.
Egocentrists don’t necessarily hold themselves in high regard, they just have a bias towards interpreting things as being about them. The most self-loathing person I know is highly egocentric.
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What kind of supposedly trans-friendly space has a bunch of people defending defaulting to male and getting upvoted? That shit would get dogpiled and banned here. It’s really basic stuff, like on top of being misgendering it’s also sexist. What is this, the 1800’s? Simone de Beauvoir was criticizing it in the 40’s.
Legitimately this is extremely disgusting and vile behavior
“I don’t like politics” people are actually the devil incarnate
“I don’t like politics”
“I support the status quo”
no more half measures walter
Usually “I don’t like politics” just means “I have a vague sense of guilt/unease about the status quo, but don’t want to examine that further because it benefits me.”
Someone in there is positing that hexbear users are upvoting that post.
I mean, I guess we could make accounts on other servers, but we’re defederated so that’s kind of a hassle lol
Are you now, or have you ever been, a member of Hexbear.net?
Is the hexbear in the room with us right now
Upbears are pouring in from shrekland.net.
trans people should come here, especially to traa and other lgbt spaces here. even if they arent hard left we’d treat them better.
As a person who feels anarchist principles would be the most benificial way to organize a society, I don’t personally feel like its possible to be harder left.
I always feel trepidatious engaging in hexbear threads. I can’t tell if many of the takes on here are sincere or trolling, and the immediate mass response to guessing wrong is a dissincentive.
If Hexbears get at you for being a left anarchist report em. This is a left unity site. Sectarianism is not welcome. Our anarchist comrades are.
So far, nobody has.
Hexbear has some anarchists but more MLs. The mods delete more blatant sectarianism, but it’s not always perfect.
The main point of friction always ends up being US foreign policy. MLs see you criticizing a socialist state like China and think you’re an anti, when of course it’s still evil because all states are evil. But on the other hand, we’re having this conversation in English. The biggest influence we’d have on Chinese politics from over here would be to convince other English speakers to support anti-China foreign policy in their own governments. That’s state intervention, not anarchism.
Yeah, thats fair. The biggest thought trap I see people going in to is “the enemy of my enemy”. As I see it, capital impiaralism must be dismantled, and countered, but state capitalism with socialist characteristics doesn’t look like an ultimately fruitful path for enhanced liberty, so I think its important to be critical but not dismissive. I haven’t found that to be a minority stance amongst anarchsts. Ultimately, the idea of “foriegn policy” itself is statist and true solidarity means standing up for everyone regardless of who the oppressor is.
I mean, I’m a pretty hard ML-type (the
reader) and I want to work towards a hegelian end of the state. I think the primary difference is that I see a tactical use of the state in that process. Honestly, until US imperialism and the broader capitalist structures are thrown down, I don’t see much point in arguing with anarchist comrades who agree with me on nearly all the meaningful diagnoses of society’s problems. It’s entirely a tactics/future oriented disagreement, which we can have without fucking purging each other and generally come away (ideally) both better for it.
Idk your fancy oversized hexbear emotes, but please imagine I have selected a few choice ones to signal my agreement
we fight with tools, and sometimes those tools were built by the state.
I used to be the ML “all anarkiddies are useful idiots who only ever aid the state by being too stupid to recognise manufactured consent and propaganda” type of gal for my sins so I don’t blame the distrust.
I’ve since grown up lmao and a big part of that was realising that most professed anarchists on twitter having shit takes are just
wankers who want to feel cool and left wing to avoid being called out for their racism and think anarchism is the perfect veneer.Meeting actually based well read anarchists irl at community orgs made me realise I was being that ML trope of arrogant snob.
My least favorite is the feudalisn-with-extra-markets crowd who keep doing a fascist recuperation on anarchism. They ruined “libertarian” and now they keep trying to make “anarcho-capitalist” a thing, as if political compass was a real and healthy thing
but state capitalism with socialist characteristics doesn’t look like an ultimately fruitful path for enhanced liberty
China has brought hundreds of millions of people out of poverty. That’s liberty. It’s not perfect but it has worked.
European colonialism brought hundreds of millions out of poverty. I don’t personally think chinese socialism has been nearly as damaging, but bringing people out of poverty is not, to my mind, a sufficient metric.
Colonialism plunged entire continents into poverty? And weavers in europe certainly did not get rich either.
Thats quite true. As mentioned, the harm of colonialism far outstrips the harm of comnunism in china.
Are you suggesting weavers in China today are rich, compared to weavers in Europe today?
European colonialism brought hundreds of millions out of poverty.
Uhhh… I dont think so and I’d like to know why you believe this?
The colonialist powers in Europe, North America, and East Asia have a population in the hundreds of millions and general access to wealth and utilities greater than most of the world. Even in the worst parts of the US, clean water is more accessible than in much of the world.
Like, the global capital machine works on a three part extraction:
- extract wealth from colonies (de facto or dejure) through resource transfer
- extract raw wealth from labor through manufactor of goods out of resources
- re-extract wealth from from both parties through sales of manufactured goods
if we are looking purely at distribution of stuff and money, I feel its not terribley controversial to suggest that a representative person in the colonial core has more than one in a colony.
Now, at what level does having more stuff rise to “not being in poverty” is a topic that I would find a lot more debatable, but even the UN’s self congradulatory and pitiful “2 dollars a day” shows more people hitting that in the imperial core than outside it
Edit to note: I’m not saying “CHINA BAD” here, I’m saying “lifted out of poverty” is not a good metric. Its an inherently capitalist metric. Measuring if people have enough stuff is a losing game against capitalist wealth extraction. Measure instead how good a life is.
It’s not liberty for queer chinese people. And liberty on the condition that you have the correct race, gender, and sexuality isn’t liberty, it’s privilege.
liberty on the condition that you have the correct race
Bullshit to say this about China
And tell me about the liberty felt by a queer kid in America whose parents disown them and kick them out of the house. Marriage rights are good but not the sin qua non of queer rights like neoliberals would have you believe.
I agree, liberty in the west is shit too. Everywhere’s horrible.
Bullshit to say this about China
I’m not one of these pro-china people but in it’s current state, China has way more rights for trans people than the U.S. There are informed consent clinics in a number of cities and while I’m sure trans woman are discriminated against there there are no laws directly discriminating against them.
Meanwhile the U.S basically bans trans people (and sometimes gay people) from existing in half of this country by land mass. Not even going to say that china has a “good” queer rights record or even one that’s worthy of a socialist country but like China and Vietnam have better queer rights than any other countries in Asia (other than maybe japan) and def in the U.S
There might have been an argument that the U.S was a better place to be queer in like 2018 but we don’t live in 2018 anymore
Interesting. I’m aware that the US is descending into fascism, that’s why I’m trying to help my partner refugee out of there. I don’t think I mentioned the US in my comment, and it’s not like china and america are the only countries. I’d like to hear more about trans rights in china, but first I’d like to hear why you thought the fourth riech was so pertinent to this conversation.
but state capitalism with socialist characteristics
How much have you actually investigated this claim?
The characterization of china as state capitalism? You know, I hadn’t ever gatten a first hand source for it, so you did inspire me to check my understanding.
Its a central tenant and a core part of Xi Jiping thought. It was unanimously affirmed at the 20th party constitution convention. Some key highlights:
- the system under which public ownership is the mainstay and diverse forms of ownership develop together
- the socialist market economy
- efforts to foster a new pattern of development that is focused on the domestic economy and features positive interplay between domestic and international economic flows
you can read it yourself in the resolution on Party Constitution amendment
That’s something. Now, what do you mean by “state capitalist”?
My understanding of it is a system of ownership and direction of enterprizes, where the state participates as a capitalist and as managenent, either wholely or in concert with private ownership.
You know, like Lennin meant
edit to add: Lennin was certainly against any private participation in capitalism, but the soviet party did loosen that with parastroika, and the Chinese Communist party started with, I believe, Deng Xiaping Thought, tho I would have to double chetk that it didn’t start earlier
i cant speak much for the rest of hexbear but at /c/traa (im the mod there) we intend on whacking people that mess with trans solidarity too much with sectarianism. also @Nakoichi@hexbear.net is our resident always online anarchist so maybe they can provide more insight for you. also pretty sure we have a tranarchist or two on our mod team
our resident always online anarchist
Hey fuck you! But also thanks for the shoutout lol
this is when i do the doe eyes to come back into favor
“Hey, fuck you!”, the greating of a true anarchist. Or person from New Jersey. Its hard to tell.
(spoken with love, but also its true)
Coming from the all, chapo and dunk tank form my main experiance of hexbear. Happy far the invite, I’ll subscribe
It depends on the user. I’ve noticed many are just chill and having a laugh at the depressing existence of living under capitalism. I’m enjoying interacting here after lurking without an account.
Just don’t threaten our hexbear cheese wheel stockpile and I won’t throw you in the castle jail!
Depends on the user is sort of the problem tho. sometimes they have a laugh with poe-level sarcasm, which I can identify in my friends, but not with internet strangers. So its scary
Jesus, I know what you mean. I’ve been on this site from the beginning, off and on, but sometimes it’s hard to tell what’s sarcasm, or if it’s a bit. For example:
Definitely a bit: /u/NeeraTanden
Still can’t tell if it’s a bit: /u/LiberalSocialist
There were too many sincere posts for libsoc to be a bit
I always feel trepidatious engaging in hexbear threads. I can’t tell if many of the takes on here are sincere or trolling, and the immediate mass response to guessing wrong is a dissincentive.
You have to break through this.
Engaging in having bad takes is a quick way to challenge yourself. And challenging yourself is good. Either you will come out with stronger confidence in the views that you have or you will learn new things and develop yourself as a person.
Break through the fear of participation. There is never any end to learning, and never any end to developing our views. It is necessary to engage in challenging ourselves in order to advance.
So you had a shit take? Who cares. Assuming you’re not a shit who actively avoids admitting when wrong and developing, all will be fine.
Naw, I don’t mind much when someone points out that I had a shit take, and takes the time to help me understand it.
An inbox-destroying number of messages about it is a different beast. At some point, a friendly correction or two changes in to a beast with no nuance or possibility of discussion.
It results in a third outcome: the target stops learning or engaging at all.
Yeah, not surprised by this. Harboring chasers and kicking out trans communists is a great way to make your community a shithole of reactionary jerks.
“i made my space ‘safe’ for anti-communists and now it’s mostly reactionaries! how could the left do this to me?!”
no more half measures walter
God that place is quickly becoming a fucking cesspool
It was a cesspool from the moment moss hijacked it with 196
Yup, once they let a wrecker mod hijack things they were hosed
Along with Lemmy.world
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Ada’s going to be shocked when she finds out the user I told her was being transphobic is a transphobe. How could she have known, why didn’t anyone tell her!? /s
Yeah calling someone guy is obviously masculine. “Hey guys” is less so, but it’s entirely fair to not like it. Man and dude: no shit it’s masculine gendering.
South Park brained “nonpolitical” “centrist” chuds also like to say “dude” and piously claim that it isn’t gendered.
“Hey everybody,” has been my default for a while now. I don’t understand what’s so hard about making that the norm for some people.
If I want to be a bombastic show-off on stage (which I like to do sometimes!), I’ll open with, “Welcome, one and all, to… THE THINGY!”
This isn’t rocket surgery. Even an old asshole like me can be inclusive with next to zero effort.
I like “Howdy, folks 🤠”
“Hey y’all” for similar cowboy effect
Alternatively:
Surely the precise meaning of words like dude, guys etc. is dialect and audience dependant? Use of English can very considerably just across the US and more so internationally.
Lol, everyone predicted that anti communist “leftist” spaces devolve to this. Maybe they should listen
Naaaaah they will keep doing it till they are in camps and then wonder who let the wolves in.
Yeah Ada does genuinely seem to have good intentions but she’s like letting a lot of idk, kind of scummy people fester in the instance, like i made a post about native blahaj users being chasery at me on there and to her credit Ada found it and DMed me about it, but the user who came at me really aggressively and accused me of being chaserphobic (in reply to me telling a cishet male chaser I would be uncomfortable with being in a relationship with anyone who talked about trans people the way they did) only had their comment removed with a request to edit it to remove the bit where they called me chaserphobic, they didn’t even get banned from the comm.
(In regards to the other chaser, I suggested that since they were seemingly a child they’d just get a stern talking to in DMs and a warning and Ada agreed to that)
chaserphobic
It’s not like the mods over there didn’t know about the chaser who was harassing you. They would pop up whenever Ada posted to yell at her for getting rid of their NSFW com
I believe they were actually a tranfem / enby pick me and not a chaser (idk their pronouns because they weren’t in their bio and I couldn’t read past more than one of their posts complaining about Ada defedding an instance that hosted a comm imitating CSAM as a kink but I know they’re not he/him)
Thanks for the correction
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What the fuck is chaserphobic and how is it a bad thing if it’s a real thing? My cis-brain can’t comprehend this
It’s what a particularly bold chaser invented to make not fucking them Ina hypothetical scenario a form of oppression.
So an incel with a spesific fetish, makes sense
Just trans “pick me” things ig
From the people that brought you “people of means” comes a whole new flavour of too-online-yet-not-online-enough nonsense fresh for this year of our lord two thousand and twenty-three
I guess the post got 1984’d because I don’t see it anymore.
The post-Hexbear Blahaj really is something else.
Can someone explain what happened? Been gone for a few days. From my understanding the admin of Blahaj didn’t handle some stuff well and so Hexbear defederated from Blahaj, but that’s the last I heard. Did we refederate or…?
No, that’s mostly it. Basically Blahaj was starting a lot of bad-faith arguments, their mods were deliberately trying to wreck conversations, they seriously failed to address the repeated spouting of transphobia and chasers on their own instance, and the admin either couldn’t or wouldn’t address the problem.
That’s why we defederated, and since then Blahaj users actually seem to be significantly more aware and outspoken that their own instance is actually plagued by these issues. They also seem to live in the constant fear that the Hexbears are secretly ‘brigading’ every thread and vote they ever have now. So it’s been an interesting change in attitude to see.
What are the mod logs trying to say here? Please tone it down for a laymen.
They removing posts calling out this behaviour?
If so
That’s correct
Can’t your magnificent eyebrows save us?
iWell that would explain why I see a dronerights user in here trolling for attention
this is the hugest self-own I’ve seen. you run an instance for trans people you goddamn fucking prick
