I agree with you, and that’s how you know it’s just disinformation and dishonesty. Nobody ever has a serious name to replace Biden. You press them for the replacement candidate, and you’ll get a ridiculous answer because they don’t actually have a plan. They just want to knock Biden down.
Harris is already on the ticket. If she’s the reason to vote, good news! Biden can step aside after he beats Trump and hand Harris the big chair. She can then run in 4 years as an incumbent (assuming she does a good job.) If she’s not the dream candidate, then why aren’t we talking about replacing her on the ticket? You want Whitmer or Newsom or Buttigieg, then put them on as the VP and let them run behind Biden.
You don’t get away from Biden’s baggage by having him step aaide. His record, his endorsements, his policies, those all come with the package. The only thing you shed is his age. If that’s the only reason you’re concerned about Biden, then it’s not a serious concern.
It’s not that Biden is the only person who can beat Trump. Biden is the only person RUNNING who can beat Trump. There are plenty of people who could beat Trump, but until one of them says they want the job this entire thing is a nonstarter.
the DNC kinda prevents legitimate alternatives from succeeding though. It doesn’t have to be this way but the party keeps it like this, maintaining the incumbent as the only choice.
People want more options and they would be available if it was remotely possible to overcome the DNC’s favoritism to Biden.
I 1000% agree with you. The DNC shouldn’t be operating as an arm of the incumbent, that’s precisely why we’re in this position now. I just don’t know how that changes when the DNC is staffed with people chosen by the incumbent, especially before November.
The level of political analysis in this thread is like armchair traffic engineers talking about how we could eliminate traffic by just opening up another lane.
Winning an election in our current system means running a 50 state strategy and getting more votes than your opponent. Almost everyone who votes is uninformed on most issues, and will vote for the person they like most. Some vote against the person they hate most. A full third of eligible voters did not vote in the last presidential election, and that was the highest voter turnout in 120 years.
To get someone to vote for you, you need three things in this order:
Recognize your name
Believe they know you well enough to see you in the job
Be motivated to go out of their way to cast a ballot
That’s it. All of the ads and speeches and interviews and debates are trying to accomplish those three objectives. That’s why primaries are important, because it gives the candidates time to differentiate themselves and build a following of donors and volunteers.
An incumbent has a ridiculous advantage in that they have 1 and 2 completed. Everyone voting knows that Biden is the President, and they have seen him doing the job. Trump has also been President and done the job. So it just comes down to which of these two old, white shitbags can motivate enough voters to show up.
If the incumbent drops out, you are starting over at zero. The candidate must introduce themselves to the voters, and then convince them that they have the experience and gravitas to handle the job. The American voters are woefully inept at judging whether a person has the experience or gravitas, but we all believe we are good at it.
A lot of people are motivated to vote because they love Trump. A lot of people are motivated because they hate Trump. Biden might have a handful of supporters that are motivated by Biden, and there might be a few morons who hate Biden enough to vote for Trump. The real hurdle Biden needs to clear is getting people who are unenthusiastic about either candidate to show up.
So the question becomes, is there another candidate who is so energizing and charismatic that they can introduce themselves, demonstrate competence, and motivate the unenthused without alienating the already luke-warm supporters?
What does Harris get you? She’s not going to change course on Israel. Youth? She’s fairly unpopular among young voters. Women? Anyone who cares about women’s rights is already voting against Trump. Minorities? See: Women. Plus, anyone who loves Harris is already going to be motivated to vote for Biden, because he’s not likely to go the full four years.
If you don’t like Harris, then who? All of the big names in the party have backed Biden and have said they aren’t running. Are we going to nominate that Joe Shmoe primary challenger that couldn’t even get on the ballot in half the states? He’s been running for a year and I can’t remember his name or tell you what his policies are.
All of these hypothetical scenarios about how the ticket would be better if the DNC wasn’t corrupt, that’s just bullshit. Our election system sucks, but we’re not going to fix it by complaining about the team uniforms. You want to make it better? Run for office. Write your representatives. Donate and/or volunteer for a campaign. Vote out conservatives at every level of government. Talk politics with your friends and neighbors. These things will all help. Whinging about the DNC on Lemmy will not.
Yeah I was just agreeing with a specific point about how we intentionally give the incumbent even more of an advantage during the primaries. Nothing you said is exclusive to my comment. I know/agree with pretty much everything you said already. Sorry you had to write all that.
Run for office. Write your representatives. Donate and/or volunteer for a campaign. Vote out conservatives at every level of government. Talk politics with your friends and neighbors. These things will all help.
All great points. How about we both spread this message and you forgive me for posting my admittedly unproductive comment?
Isn’t it convenient that no candidate who wants to stay in the good graces of the democratic party will announce their candidacy until the incumbent democratic president steps down. What an unbelievably paradoxical argument to make.
I would argue that anyone who meets the qualifications COULD have run, but the chances of beating the incumbency advantage were admittedly pretty low. There are a lot of institutional obstacles in the way, but that’s not the same as actively preventing someone from tossing their hat in the ring. That’s like saying RFK Jr was prevented from running. He just had no chance winning the Democratic primary (because he’s a piece of shit) so he went independent.
The deck is clearly stacked against anyone trying to unseat an incumbent, but that’s not new information. That’s literally how our system works. I would prefer the DNC be neutral and have a drag out fight in the primary and then support the winner, but that’s pretty tough to do when the incumbent is the de facto leader of the party.
Did I say that? I might have said something like it in another comment, but I don’t think I ever said anyone who is voting for Biden would vote for Trump if the Dems nominate someone else.
There exist many voters who do not follow politics and will only show up to vote for someone they know. Name recognition builds trust and enthusiasm for voting. We need all the voters, not just the ones tuned in enough to know they shouldn’t vote for Trump.
Oh, they’ve moved on to indignation now and pretending they didn’t spend the last few weeks disappearing after being asked for a name. But they still very rarely actually give one.
She’s not my favorite, but mostly because we haven’t seen much of her. If Biden can live two years and she can really get her voice out there, she could potentially see 2028 and 2032.
You haven’t seen much of her because she is a terminally uncharismatic former cop who is abusive towards her staff. The best she can do for herself is stay behind the scenes.
I cannot imagine her running a campaign that motivates people to show up at the polls. Now would be her chance to show it though, considering the president himself being incapacitated outside the hours of 10am and 4pm.
I think if she had been a half-decent politician, Biden would have resigned two years ago. That would have given her a shot at establishing herself as the President before this election.
The fact that Biden is still at it means he didn’t want Harris to be President.
They don’t have an answer or you don’t like the answer? Because they are two different things. I can name a bunch of possibilities. I don’t like many of them, but to say “they don’t have any ideas” is ridiculous. So let’s make a list of people I’ve seen brought up as possible replacements:
Newsom, Klouchar, Warren, Sanders, AOC, Whitmer, Buttigeig, Harris…do I need to go on?
Now here’s what you do: you move the goalposts or you play the no true scotsman game (“no, somebody with a serious chance”). Then you continue the game smugly like nobody has actually given you any names that you’re willing to concede might be a better nominee than Biden.
And maybe you won’t, but this is how this argument has gone every single time I’ve had it. It’s a dismissal technique and I’m only really calling it out is because there are a lot of folks like me that have been saying Biden is a shitty choice for the last 3 years and have been told to sit down and shut up because he’s the president and you have to support him (sound familiar? Trump supporters did the same damn thing). We were told “oh Biden has committed to being a 1 term president, he’s just righting the ship”. We were told we could address it in 2024. And then he decided that nah, he felt like running again. And killed the primaries. And we’re told we have to vote for him again because the other guy is fascist.
It feels very much like Oliver Twist being fed gruel everyday and being told to be thankful for it. And then those same people who told us to sit down and shut up are the ones telling us that we have to vote for it again (because fascism!). This is what happened in 2016, then again in 2020, and now again in 2024. At some point people start to throw you the middle finger and walk away, and that’s what you’re seeing happen.
You named 8 people who have all backed Biden and are not running. I would also prefer pretty much any of them to Biden, but they aren’t candidates. You might as well throw in Jon Stewart and Kermit the Frog for all the realism you have in your list.
You also named 8 people. That’s not a plan, that’s a menu. You don’t have an answer, either. The primaries have happened already, and the Democrats don’t have another candidate.
I’ll take you at your word that you’re not a fascist pretending to be a disgruntled progressive, but this is precisely what a fascist pretending to be a disgruntled progressive would say. A sincere progressive wouldn’t attack Biden without a specific path forward or realistic alternative.
So I’ll tell you what should be obvious to you: Trump will be worse. If you don’t think Trump will be worse than Biden, then you’re a Trump supporter. There’s only one perspective that creates such a massive blind spot, and that is to be squarely inside of Trump’s large colon. From any other angle, you would support Biden.
So, please, vote. I don’t expect you to like it. I don’t like it. But we can work on the rest once Trump is behind bars. If he wins again, that’s the end of our Democracy. It is not an option. Biden must win, and then I’ll join your voice in demanding he step down.
Of course they’re not running, of course they’ve backed Biden. Not openly backing Biden is a sure way to be blacklisted in the Democratic Party
Also, if you read my post, you did exactly what I said you would do (“That’s a menu not a plan”). All your complaints are caused by the DNC. They cancelled the primaries, they rallied behind Biden before primaries happened despite many folks screaming they didn’t want him. And there were other candidates, but they didn’t get a chance because most state Democratic Parties refused to put them on ballots. Not wanting to have voters have their say in a candidate, what’s that sound like?
Also, wake up call: Trump will never be behind bars. And when he dies, he’s going to be replaced by someone with the same rhetoric and the brains to implement it. Everyone keeps talking about how “we have to vote this way or fascism wins”. I agree with that. But what people aren’t acknowledging is that the Democrats are slowing slipping into fascism as well. And the “you gotta vote for this guy” rhetoric makes it worse, not better.
I love your “you might actually a fascist, not a progressive” talk. I hear it super often from Biden or die types. I also heard it when I begrudgingly voted for Hillary, and then Biden the first time. I’ve caucused for Bernie, twice. I’ve been part of my county’s policy committee for the last 7 years. I will be voting Democrat for almost every single down ticket election. Hell, I’m literally going to a fundraiser Saturday for 2 local Democrats because one of them was one of the only Dems in my state to actually defend trans rights while Republicans (successfully) began to strip them away. You know, the exact things that just got passed through the Democrat-controlled Armed Services committee and supported by the majority of Democrats on the committee? The thing that Biden just started backsliding on? Yea, as a trans person you’ll have to excuse my absolute frustration and anger in watching the Democratic Party, yet again, slide to the right.
People keep saying this like people just started attacking Biden. I’ve been saying this since December 2020. A lot of people have.
And I’ve said this before: Republicans have a supermajority in my state. The national elections don’t make a lick of difference to me because even if Biden is elected, Project 2025 is coming to my state. And Biden won’t stop it. There aren’t many national Democrats that will. Like you know what they did with abortion in 2021? Yea, nothing.
That being said, I’m not advocating for people not voting. I think every single person who is eligible should vote whether I agree with their vote for not. I just refuse to vote against my own best interest, and that includes Biden.
You don’t get away from Biden’s baggage by having him step aaide. His record, his endorsements, his policies, those all come with the package.
That’s a good point. The entire Democratic Party has failed the working class (because they were never on our side to begin with). Whose name is on the line on the ballot next to the D is irrelevant; we’ve already lost.
I agree with you, and that’s how you know it’s just disinformation and dishonesty. Nobody ever has a serious name to replace Biden. You press them for the replacement candidate, and you’ll get a ridiculous answer because they don’t actually have a plan. They just want to knock Biden down.
Harris is already on the ticket. If she’s the reason to vote, good news! Biden can step aside after he beats Trump and hand Harris the big chair. She can then run in 4 years as an incumbent (assuming she does a good job.) If she’s not the dream candidate, then why aren’t we talking about replacing her on the ticket? You want Whitmer or Newsom or Buttigieg, then put them on as the VP and let them run behind Biden.
You don’t get away from Biden’s baggage by having him step aaide. His record, his endorsements, his policies, those all come with the package. The only thing you shed is his age. If that’s the only reason you’re concerned about Biden, then it’s not a serious concern.
how is Biden the only person that can beat Trump? What left-leaning person would go “hmm, it’s not Biden so I guess I’m voting Trump”?
It’s not that Biden is the only person who can beat Trump. Biden is the only person RUNNING who can beat Trump. There are plenty of people who could beat Trump, but until one of them says they want the job this entire thing is a nonstarter.
the DNC kinda prevents legitimate alternatives from succeeding though. It doesn’t have to be this way but the party keeps it like this, maintaining the incumbent as the only choice.
People want more options and they would be available if it was remotely possible to overcome the DNC’s favoritism to Biden.
I 1000% agree with you. The DNC shouldn’t be operating as an arm of the incumbent, that’s precisely why we’re in this position now. I just don’t know how that changes when the DNC is staffed with people chosen by the incumbent, especially before November.
The level of political analysis in this thread is like armchair traffic engineers talking about how we could eliminate traffic by just opening up another lane.
Winning an election in our current system means running a 50 state strategy and getting more votes than your opponent. Almost everyone who votes is uninformed on most issues, and will vote for the person they like most. Some vote against the person they hate most. A full third of eligible voters did not vote in the last presidential election, and that was the highest voter turnout in 120 years.
To get someone to vote for you, you need three things in this order:
That’s it. All of the ads and speeches and interviews and debates are trying to accomplish those three objectives. That’s why primaries are important, because it gives the candidates time to differentiate themselves and build a following of donors and volunteers.
An incumbent has a ridiculous advantage in that they have 1 and 2 completed. Everyone voting knows that Biden is the President, and they have seen him doing the job. Trump has also been President and done the job. So it just comes down to which of these two old, white shitbags can motivate enough voters to show up.
If the incumbent drops out, you are starting over at zero. The candidate must introduce themselves to the voters, and then convince them that they have the experience and gravitas to handle the job. The American voters are woefully inept at judging whether a person has the experience or gravitas, but we all believe we are good at it.
A lot of people are motivated to vote because they love Trump. A lot of people are motivated because they hate Trump. Biden might have a handful of supporters that are motivated by Biden, and there might be a few morons who hate Biden enough to vote for Trump. The real hurdle Biden needs to clear is getting people who are unenthusiastic about either candidate to show up.
So the question becomes, is there another candidate who is so energizing and charismatic that they can introduce themselves, demonstrate competence, and motivate the unenthused without alienating the already luke-warm supporters?
What does Harris get you? She’s not going to change course on Israel. Youth? She’s fairly unpopular among young voters. Women? Anyone who cares about women’s rights is already voting against Trump. Minorities? See: Women. Plus, anyone who loves Harris is already going to be motivated to vote for Biden, because he’s not likely to go the full four years.
If you don’t like Harris, then who? All of the big names in the party have backed Biden and have said they aren’t running. Are we going to nominate that Joe Shmoe primary challenger that couldn’t even get on the ballot in half the states? He’s been running for a year and I can’t remember his name or tell you what his policies are.
All of these hypothetical scenarios about how the ticket would be better if the DNC wasn’t corrupt, that’s just bullshit. Our election system sucks, but we’re not going to fix it by complaining about the team uniforms. You want to make it better? Run for office. Write your representatives. Donate and/or volunteer for a campaign. Vote out conservatives at every level of government. Talk politics with your friends and neighbors. These things will all help. Whinging about the DNC on Lemmy will not.
Yeah I was just agreeing with a specific point about how we intentionally give the incumbent even more of an advantage during the primaries. Nothing you said is exclusive to my comment. I know/agree with pretty much everything you said already. Sorry you had to write all that.
All great points. How about we both spread this message and you forgive me for posting my admittedly unproductive comment?
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Isn’t it convenient that no candidate who wants to stay in the good graces of the democratic party will announce their candidacy until the incumbent democratic president steps down. What an unbelievably paradoxical argument to make.
Because nobody else was allowed to run, exactly.
I would argue that anyone who meets the qualifications COULD have run, but the chances of beating the incumbency advantage were admittedly pretty low. There are a lot of institutional obstacles in the way, but that’s not the same as actively preventing someone from tossing their hat in the ring. That’s like saying RFK Jr was prevented from running. He just had no chance winning the Democratic primary (because he’s a piece of shit) so he went independent.
The deck is clearly stacked against anyone trying to unseat an incumbent, but that’s not new information. That’s literally how our system works. I would prefer the DNC be neutral and have a drag out fight in the primary and then support the winner, but that’s pretty tough to do when the incumbent is the de facto leader of the party.
Did I say that? I might have said something like it in another comment, but I don’t think I ever said anyone who is voting for Biden would vote for Trump if the Dems nominate someone else.
There exist many voters who do not follow politics and will only show up to vote for someone they know. Name recognition builds trust and enthusiasm for voting. We need all the voters, not just the ones tuned in enough to know they shouldn’t vote for Trump.
Oh, they’ve moved on to indignation now and pretending they didn’t spend the last few weeks disappearing after being asked for a name. But they still very rarely actually give one.
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Exactly. Does anyone think Biden is making it another 4 years? We’ve voting for president Harris one way or the other
She’s not my favorite, but mostly because we haven’t seen much of her. If Biden can live two years and she can really get her voice out there, she could potentially see 2028 and 2032.
You haven’t seen much of her because she is a terminally uncharismatic former cop who is abusive towards her staff. The best she can do for herself is stay behind the scenes.
I cannot imagine her running a campaign that motivates people to show up at the polls. Now would be her chance to show it though, considering the president himself being incapacitated outside the hours of 10am and 4pm.
I think if she had been a half-decent politician, Biden would have resigned two years ago. That would have given her a shot at establishing herself as the President before this election.
The fact that Biden is still at it means he didn’t want Harris to be President.
They don’t have an answer or you don’t like the answer? Because they are two different things. I can name a bunch of possibilities. I don’t like many of them, but to say “they don’t have any ideas” is ridiculous. So let’s make a list of people I’ve seen brought up as possible replacements:
Newsom, Klouchar, Warren, Sanders, AOC, Whitmer, Buttigeig, Harris…do I need to go on?
Now here’s what you do: you move the goalposts or you play the no true scotsman game (“no, somebody with a serious chance”). Then you continue the game smugly like nobody has actually given you any names that you’re willing to concede might be a better nominee than Biden.
And maybe you won’t, but this is how this argument has gone every single time I’ve had it. It’s a dismissal technique and I’m only really calling it out is because there are a lot of folks like me that have been saying Biden is a shitty choice for the last 3 years and have been told to sit down and shut up because he’s the president and you have to support him (sound familiar? Trump supporters did the same damn thing). We were told “oh Biden has committed to being a 1 term president, he’s just righting the ship”. We were told we could address it in 2024. And then he decided that nah, he felt like running again. And killed the primaries. And we’re told we have to vote for him again because the other guy is fascist.
It feels very much like Oliver Twist being fed gruel everyday and being told to be thankful for it. And then those same people who told us to sit down and shut up are the ones telling us that we have to vote for it again (because fascism!). This is what happened in 2016, then again in 2020, and now again in 2024. At some point people start to throw you the middle finger and walk away, and that’s what you’re seeing happen.
You named 8 people who have all backed Biden and are not running. I would also prefer pretty much any of them to Biden, but they aren’t candidates. You might as well throw in Jon Stewart and Kermit the Frog for all the realism you have in your list.
You also named 8 people. That’s not a plan, that’s a menu. You don’t have an answer, either. The primaries have happened already, and the Democrats don’t have another candidate.
I’ll take you at your word that you’re not a fascist pretending to be a disgruntled progressive, but this is precisely what a fascist pretending to be a disgruntled progressive would say. A sincere progressive wouldn’t attack Biden without a specific path forward or realistic alternative.
So I’ll tell you what should be obvious to you: Trump will be worse. If you don’t think Trump will be worse than Biden, then you’re a Trump supporter. There’s only one perspective that creates such a massive blind spot, and that is to be squarely inside of Trump’s large colon. From any other angle, you would support Biden.
So, please, vote. I don’t expect you to like it. I don’t like it. But we can work on the rest once Trump is behind bars. If he wins again, that’s the end of our Democracy. It is not an option. Biden must win, and then I’ll join your voice in demanding he step down.
Of course they’re not running, of course they’ve backed Biden. Not openly backing Biden is a sure way to be blacklisted in the Democratic Party
Also, if you read my post, you did exactly what I said you would do (“That’s a menu not a plan”). All your complaints are caused by the DNC. They cancelled the primaries, they rallied behind Biden before primaries happened despite many folks screaming they didn’t want him. And there were other candidates, but they didn’t get a chance because most state Democratic Parties refused to put them on ballots. Not wanting to have voters have their say in a candidate, what’s that sound like?
Also, wake up call: Trump will never be behind bars. And when he dies, he’s going to be replaced by someone with the same rhetoric and the brains to implement it. Everyone keeps talking about how “we have to vote this way or fascism wins”. I agree with that. But what people aren’t acknowledging is that the Democrats are slowing slipping into fascism as well. And the “you gotta vote for this guy” rhetoric makes it worse, not better.
I love your “you might actually a fascist, not a progressive” talk. I hear it super often from Biden or die types. I also heard it when I begrudgingly voted for Hillary, and then Biden the first time. I’ve caucused for Bernie, twice. I’ve been part of my county’s policy committee for the last 7 years. I will be voting Democrat for almost every single down ticket election. Hell, I’m literally going to a fundraiser Saturday for 2 local Democrats because one of them was one of the only Dems in my state to actually defend trans rights while Republicans (successfully) began to strip them away. You know, the exact things that just got passed through the Democrat-controlled Armed Services committee and supported by the majority of Democrats on the committee? The thing that Biden just started backsliding on? Yea, as a trans person you’ll have to excuse my absolute frustration and anger in watching the Democratic Party, yet again, slide to the right.
You’re right, I stopped reading after you got mad at me for not accepting your bullshit answer and then gave me a bullshit answer.
You’re the one backing Trump. Your arguments are invalid.
Yup, you’re right. I don’t like Biden, therefore my queer ass is clearly a fascist.
And you wonder why people aren’t swayed by your argument.
You’re attacking Biden so Trump can win. I don’t like Biden, either, but Trump is worse. Your agenda is transparent.
People keep saying this like people just started attacking Biden. I’ve been saying this since December 2020. A lot of people have.
And I’ve said this before: Republicans have a supermajority in my state. The national elections don’t make a lick of difference to me because even if Biden is elected, Project 2025 is coming to my state. And Biden won’t stop it. There aren’t many national Democrats that will. Like you know what they did with abortion in 2021? Yea, nothing.
That being said, I’m not advocating for people not voting. I think every single person who is eligible should vote whether I agree with their vote for not. I just refuse to vote against my own best interest, and that includes Biden.
So Trump is in your best interest? Because it is an either/or situation.
That’s a good point. The entire Democratic Party has failed the working class (because they were never on our side to begin with). Whose name is on the line on the ballot next to the D is irrelevant; we’ve already lost.