I am copying my reply from elsewhere in this thread so you can see it too:
I am against Trump as much as you.
But if we feel we must vote D “or else” how and why would the Democrats feel the need to offer meaningful reforms to their voters?
If I am a Democrat politician and I depend on billionaire good will $$$, I know I don’t even need to promise much to my voters, I just need to be less tyrannical and less insane than my friends across the isle. Then my goal is to work the system enough to get reelected, and after a few election cycles revolving door myself into a $300k a year “do nothing” job that one of my billionaire backers will have lined up for me assuming I don’t displease him.
The logic of this is inescapable. It means our only hope is for the Republicans to somehow become much more progressive so that the Dems actually need to work to compete.
The only way for a progressive voter to escape this conundrum is to signal to the Democrats that the Dems do NOT have our votes on lock. And the only way to signal that is to vote our conscience no matter what, even if it’s scary.
If we had ranked choice voting, I might agree with you.
We don’t, so I don’t.
If the Republican party maintains control in Congress - which for all practical purposes means “having 34% of the seats in a given chamber,” which they will use to block anything decent from happening - and wins the Presidency, we will have all three branches controlled by lunatics who aim to end the great political project you’ve waxed so poetically about.
“Meaningful reforms” - like student loan forgiveness, that the Republicans keep throwing roadblocks in front of? Like getting rid of non-competes, that Republicans have put a hold on? I don’t know what “meaningful reforms” you’re referring to, but you’re definitely not going to see them when the brownshirts are patrolling restrooms.
People like you talk as though “not voting Democrat” happens in a vaccuum. For the presidency, we’re FPTP and EC (the latter unless and until the National Popular Vote Interstate Compact is in full effect). If you live in New York, California, Illinois - fine, throw down your protest vote for whoever you want. Those states are going to the Democrat no matter what. Pretty much everywhere else, a vote for anyone but the Democratic candidate for President makes it easier for the Republicans to win - because it narrows the margin by which they have to beat the Democrat, and nobody who is not either the Democrat or Republican candidate has a snowball’s chance in hell of actually winning the Presidency.
Do I want a more progressive party to vote for? Sure. But at this stage, there is no hope for anything like progressivism ever again if a Republican is the next President. If you hold the Democratic party to a high progressive standard now, and withhold your vote on that ideal, you’re supplying the gasoline and matches to those who fully intend to burn everything to the ground.
For the Presidency (and the Senate, to be fair), the standard I want to see met is “don’t burn everything down.”
Switching tracks: all of this is so very much the trolley problem. Right now, the trolley is going to run us all over and then fall off a cliff, unless enough of us pull on the switch that diverts the trolley onto a different course where some people might still get run over, but at least there’s a track that we can all work on making sure is clear.
Think of free market capitalism. In an ideal world, where people played fair, this system would work. But it has been clearly shown that any and all abuses of a free market will be made in order to gain an “edge”.
You are clearly so naive that you think the meaning behind a vote somehow makes that vote more important.
I wish you were right, but you are not. I am a registered Republican and I have been voting Democrat, down ticket, as a protest for the last two elections because the GoP has become taken over by fundies and fascists.
Project 2025 scares the shit out of me. It should scare the living shit out of you too.
But here you are, arguing that Biden doesn’t deserve to be President because he did horribly at the debate, ignoring that Trump was 90% full of shit.
I don’t want Biden to be President either. JFC, he was a corporatist asshole 30 years ago, but at least this country has a chance to move forward with him in the oval office. If Trump gets elected, this is the fucking end of our Democracy. Do you not realize the point of project 2025?
I wish you would just shut the fuck up. The time to talk about different leadership was three fucking years ago.
I’m trying my best to change the local party but I’ve been blacklisted from every local GoP event. What the fuck are you doing, besides watering down opposition to literal fucking Nazis?
Your remaining such adds power to the party that is nominating the person who you (rightfully) say would be “the fucking end of our [d]emocracy.” Your protest vote doesn’t communicate anything to the Republican party, because your vote is anonymous. Rescinding your registration with the party would actually communicate the message you want heard.
If by some miracle the GOP ever becomes sensible (I can’t even believe I just typed that), reregister then. If you want to amplify your protest message, register Democrat.
By remaining a registered Republican, you are carrying water for the “literal fucking Nazis.”
I am copying my reply from elsewhere in this thread so you can see it too:
I am against Trump as much as you.
But if we feel we must vote D “or else” how and why would the Democrats feel the need to offer meaningful reforms to their voters?
If I am a Democrat politician and I depend on billionaire good will $$$, I know I don’t even need to promise much to my voters, I just need to be less tyrannical and less insane than my friends across the isle. Then my goal is to work the system enough to get reelected, and after a few election cycles revolving door myself into a $300k a year “do nothing” job that one of my billionaire backers will have lined up for me assuming I don’t displease him.
The logic of this is inescapable. It means our only hope is for the Republicans to somehow become much more progressive so that the Dems actually need to work to compete.
The only way for a progressive voter to escape this conundrum is to signal to the Democrats that the Dems do NOT have our votes on lock. And the only way to signal that is to vote our conscience no matter what, even if it’s scary.
If we had ranked choice voting, I might agree with you.
We don’t, so I don’t.
If the Republican party maintains control in Congress - which for all practical purposes means “having 34% of the seats in a given chamber,” which they will use to block anything decent from happening - and wins the Presidency, we will have all three branches controlled by lunatics who aim to end the great political project you’ve waxed so poetically about.
“Meaningful reforms” - like student loan forgiveness, that the Republicans keep throwing roadblocks in front of? Like getting rid of non-competes, that Republicans have put a hold on? I don’t know what “meaningful reforms” you’re referring to, but you’re definitely not going to see them when the brownshirts are patrolling restrooms.
People like you talk as though “not voting Democrat” happens in a vaccuum. For the presidency, we’re FPTP and EC (the latter unless and until the National Popular Vote Interstate Compact is in full effect). If you live in New York, California, Illinois - fine, throw down your protest vote for whoever you want. Those states are going to the Democrat no matter what. Pretty much everywhere else, a vote for anyone but the Democratic candidate for President makes it easier for the Republicans to win - because it narrows the margin by which they have to beat the Democrat, and nobody who is not either the Democrat or Republican candidate has a snowball’s chance in hell of actually winning the Presidency.
Do I want a more progressive party to vote for? Sure. But at this stage, there is no hope for anything like progressivism ever again if a Republican is the next President. If you hold the Democratic party to a high progressive standard now, and withhold your vote on that ideal, you’re supplying the gasoline and matches to those who fully intend to burn everything to the ground.
For the Presidency (and the Senate, to be fair), the standard I want to see met is “don’t burn everything down.”
Switching tracks: all of this is so very much the trolley problem. Right now, the trolley is going to run us all over and then fall off a cliff, unless enough of us pull on the switch that diverts the trolley onto a different course where some people might still get run over, but at least there’s a track that we can all work on making sure is clear.
Generally people read the threads that they post in. Stop spamming the same comment.
Think of free market capitalism. In an ideal world, where people played fair, this system would work. But it has been clearly shown that any and all abuses of a free market will be made in order to gain an “edge”.
You are clearly so naive that you think the meaning behind a vote somehow makes that vote more important.
I wish you were right, but you are not. I am a registered Republican and I have been voting Democrat, down ticket, as a protest for the last two elections because the GoP has become taken over by fundies and fascists.
Project 2025 scares the shit out of me. It should scare the living shit out of you too.
But here you are, arguing that Biden doesn’t deserve to be President because he did horribly at the debate, ignoring that Trump was 90% full of shit.
I don’t want Biden to be President either. JFC, he was a corporatist asshole 30 years ago, but at least this country has a chance to move forward with him in the oval office. If Trump gets elected, this is the fucking end of our Democracy. Do you not realize the point of project 2025?
I wish you would just shut the fuck up. The time to talk about different leadership was three fucking years ago.
I’m trying my best to change the local party but I’ve been blacklisted from every local GoP event. What the fuck are you doing, besides watering down opposition to literal fucking Nazis?
Not to be too coarse, but:
Your remaining such adds power to the party that is nominating the person who you (rightfully) say would be “the fucking end of our [d]emocracy.” Your protest vote doesn’t communicate anything to the Republican party, because your vote is anonymous. Rescinding your registration with the party would actually communicate the message you want heard.
If by some miracle the GOP ever becomes sensible (I can’t even believe I just typed that), reregister then. If you want to amplify your protest message, register Democrat.
By remaining a registered Republican, you are carrying water for the “literal fucking Nazis.”