• rwtwm@feddit.uk
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    2 months ago

    My concern with this line of argument is that it bundles consequences from a system of government up with the consequences of trade embargoes and other hostile actions from capitalist economies. That doesn’t make the actions of the dictators in those countries justifiable in any way, but might have precipitated conditions that made them more likely.

    How would communist nations have fared if the US had taken a ‘live and let live’ approach to them? The approach during the cold war was that they couldn’t be allowed to succeed. That led to the sort of standards of living where dictatorship tends to thrive. Note this isn’t unique to communist countries. Look at the Republican party in the US, now that Neoliberalism is failing.

    • Cowbee [he/him]@lemmy.ml
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      2 months ago

      It also ignores that Socialism in AES states has generally resulted in mass reductions in poverty, increases in literacy, education, home ownership, and life expectancy.

        • AntiOutsideAktion@lemmy.ml
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          2 months ago

          You’re a fucking idiot if you think the problem with those countries is communism and not unceasing imperial violence targeted at them from the global core of wealth and fascism.

          But even living under conditions of siege warfare they still manage to provide housing and healthcare to their people which make them objectively better places to live than the US, which deliberately keeps a large population homeless because of the coercion it creates for the working class.

        • Cowbee [he/him]@lemmy.ml
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          2 months ago

          Do you think changing Mode of Production magically transforms levels of development? Typical liberal.

          • prettybunnys@sh.itjust.works
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            2 months ago

            Perfect, no response except to throw a question and “insult”

            This is why you won’t be taken seriously ever.

            • Cowbee [he/him]@lemmy.ml
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              2 months ago

              I already answered you, living in the US is currently better than some AES states, because development isn’t something magical. However, I would absolutely pick an AES state over the US in the comimg years. Hell, the PRC is in many ways ahead of the US for the average worker already.

              • prettybunnys@sh.itjust.works
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                2 months ago

                Serious question because it is relevant to the discussion, do you currently have a job?

                Do you live in one of these western countries?

                What is your personal frame of reference that tells you you’d have a better life than where you are in Cuba or Laos or North Korea?

                What would china give you right now that you would move there for?

                Please, be specific so I can understand.

                Pretend you had a chance to convince me instead of angrily and frustratedly arguing your point in a defensive manner.

                I believe in socialism, it’s been incorporated into democracy quite well actually and provided significant quality of life for its citizens.

                Communism on the other hand has largely always moved to an authoritarian beat, China and Laos and Cuba and North Korea are all prime examples of this in the present day. Much like the two party system in the USA has hindered its democracy I don’t see how a one party system with strong central rule is not a HUGE step back from that. At least we have a semblance of choice and the mechanisms to fix what is broken.

                Why do you prefer a form of government that takes choice away from its citizens?

                • Why do you prefer a form of government that takes choice away from its citizens?

                  We don’t, we support proletarian democracy, not bourgeoisie electoralism.

                  Anna L. Strong, This Soviet World, Chapter III: The Dictatorship

                  The heads of government in America are not the real rulers. I have talked with many of them from the President down. Some of them would really like to use power for the people. They feel baffled by their inability to do so; they blame other branches of government, legislatures, courts. But they haven’t analyzed the real reason. The difficulty is that they haven’t power to use. Neither the President nor Congress nor the common people, under any form of organization whatever, can legally dispose of the oil of Rockefeller or the gold in the vaults of Morgan. If they try, they will be checked by other branches of government, which was designed as a system of checks and balances precisely to prevent such “usurpation of power.” Private capitalists own the means of production and thus rule the lives of millions. Government, however chosen, is limited to the function of making regulations which will help capitalism run more easily by adjusting relations between property and protecting it against the “lawless” demands of non-owners. This constitutes what Marxists call the dictatorship of property. “The talk about pure democracy is but a bourgeois screen,” says Stalin, “to conceal the fact that equality between exploiters and exploited is impossible. . . . It was invented to hide the sores of capitalism . . . and lend it moral strength.”

                  EPUB

                • Cowbee [he/him]@lemmy.ml
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                  2 months ago

                  Serious question because it is relevant to the discussion, do you currently have a job?

                  Yes, full-time, though the plight of the unemployed and unhoused is equally important. Not telling you any more, not doxxing myself. Additionally, it absolutely is not relevant.

                  Do you live in one of these western countries?

                  Yes.

                  What is your personal frame of reference that tells you you’d have a better life than where you are in Cuba or Laos or North Korea?

                  The US is a dying Empire. It has no long-term future, conditions are worsening. Disparity is rising and will continue to do so, and Real Wages will continue to stagnate. The world is already throwing the US off their backs at increasing rates.

                  Meanwhile, Socialism has stable growth over time that doesn’t depend on self-destructive systems like Capitalism or Imperialism.

                  I believe in socialism, it’s been incorporated into democracy quite well actually and provided significant quality of life for its citizens.

                  Social Democracy is not Socialism. I am not talking about Capitalism where “the government does some extra stuff.” Social Democracy in the Global North depends on Imperialism to support itself, and worker protections are crumbling as disparity rises. Social Democracy is a temporary concession.

                  Communism on the other hand has largely always moved to an authoritarian beat, China and Laos and Cuba and North Korea are all prime examples of this in the present day. Much like the two party system in the USA has hindered its democracy I don’t see how a one party system with strong central rule is not a HUGE step back from that. At least we have a semblance of choice and the mechanisms to fix what is broken.

                  Do you actually know how these countries function, democratically and politically? This isn’t a gotcha, I want to know to what extent you’re familiar so we can even begin to talk about them. Even then, North Korea isn’t a One-Party State.

                  Why do you prefer a form of government that takes choice away from its citizens?

                  I don’t, that’s why I am a Communist and not a Liberal. Come on, this was a useless gotcha.

                  • prettybunnys@sh.itjust.works
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                    2 months ago

                    In what communist nation are there free elections?

                    I don’t understand this mental gymnastics.

                    You’re talking about the benefits of socialism while advocating for communism but my questions have been about communism.

                    In what communist nation do you have free elections?

                    In what communist nation do the people actually choose their leadership, instead of a “elite (but remember communism is supposed to be classless…) group that elects the leaders”?

                    Communism is a novel idea BUT it hasn’t done a very good job demonstrating its benefits to the world. That’s the unfortunate reality of the situation.

    • mojofrododojo@lemmy.world
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      2 months ago

      maybe, before the '56 invasion this could have happened, but I’m dubious. And after Hungary, lol, fuck right off thinking the capitalist world should support your communist brutality.