First of all, I have more in common with atheists than religious people, so my intention isn’t to come here and attack, I just want to hear your opinions. Maybe I’m wrong, I’d like to hear from you if I am. I’m just expressing here my perception of the movement and not actually what I consider to be facts.
My issue with atheism is that I think it establishes the lack of a God or gods as the truth. I do agree that the concept of a God is hard to believe logically, specially with all the incoherent arguments that religions have had in the past. But saying that there’s no god with certainty is something I’m just not comfortable with. Science has taught us that being wrong is part of the process of progress. We’re constantly learning things we didn’t know about, confirming theories that seemed insane in their time. I feel like being open to the possibilities is a healthier mindset, as we barely understand reality.
In general, atheism feels too close minded, too attached to the current facts, which will probably be obsolete in a few centuries. I do agree with logical and rational thinking, but part of that is accepting how little we really know about reality, how what we considered truth in the past was wrong or more complex than we expected
I usually don’t believe there is a god when the argument comes from religious people, because they have no evidence, but they could be right by chance.
There is no precedence for the existence of deities.
For belief in deities, yes, but not for their existence.
That is all we need to say if we believe in the existence of deities; prior plausibility.
Staying in the middle ground of “maybe, we don’t know” makes no sense, because it puts the plausibility one step further towards “yes” than is warranted based on the evidence we have.
“There is no precedence for the existence of deities”
What makes you think humans have the capacity to perceive or understand deities?
It feels like you guys are really not understanding my point. Please put human existence into perspective and tell me how much we really know. Now, how much is there to know?
It’s like a blind person saying color doesn’t exist because he can’t experience it. You see? Humans will live and die in the relative blink of an eye. Chances are we won’t really get to know what’s actually going on. Right now we don’t really know, so having any opinion about what’s happening based on lack of evidence is really pointless. We have no evidence for most things that are actually happening in the universe.
Sorry for my very late response.
In your example of color, there are people who can, and people who can’t see colors.
Is there any analogy between that and god belief?
Not just belief, because anyone can believe anything. I mean knowledge, or sensory input.
If no one can sense (detect) deities, then how can anyone say that there is one?
And if we can’t say that there is one, why would it be unreasonable to conclude that there probably isn’t one?
That is all I as an atheist believe. That, lacking any evidence, it seems reasonable to conclude that there probably aren’t any deities.
All this talk about it being beyond our understanding sounds like begging the question if you can’t demonstrate it.
Yes, it is unreasonable to conclude anything when the subject is so out of our reach.
My point is that human perception, intelligence and understanding of the universe is comparable to a blind person and colors. Just because a blind person doesn’t perceive colors or has evidence of its existence, doesn’t mean that colors don’t exist. Just because humans aren’t intellectually capable of understanding the origin of the universe and the existence of a creator, doesn’t mean a creator doesn’t exist.
This whole “there’s no evidence” isn’t an absolute statement, it’s more like “humans haven’t gathered the evidence”. Humans haven’t gathered evidence for most of the things that are actually happening in the universe, and they are happening. We’re miniscule. We’re so small that we’re trapped in the observable universe, which is probably miniscule itself.
Yet, we stand tall and say aloud “I firmly believe this doesn’t exist because we, humans, haven’t experienced it”.
I hope you see my point now. An ant has no evidence of black holes, yet, they are. Yes, we have no evidence. No, we shouldn’t BELIEVE something based on lack of evidence.
The thing I love about science is that it is a tool, it isn’t concerned with questions such as “does God exist”. Atheists use science as the basis for a belief that not even scientists are concerned with. Science is a practical tool to increase our knowledge, it doesn’t take a stand on matters outside of it’s reach. Science doesn’t say “there are probably no gods because there’s no evidence”. That belief is not a direct result of the evidence we have gathered, that’s just atheism thinking science and evidence have more power than they do.
So again, yes, it is unreasonable to conclude something besides “I don’t know”.
I personally never said that I think there definitely is no god, so that part is a straw man argument.
It is also not a requirement of atheism, as has been explained to you multiple times. Insisting that your definition is the correct one doesn’t make it so.
Also, why is it not begging the question to say that it is out of our reach?
You say it’s like blind people and colors, but that analogy doesn’t work, because there are people who have seen colors, and can explain how colors work. Do you have a similar example for gods? Are there people who have “seen” gods, so to speak?
It seemed to me like you “concluded” there is no god. You even asked if it was unreasonable to conclude that. Maybe it’s semantics but concluding something seems like there’s a degree of certainty. Anyways, I have no issue if you decide to clarify that you don’t really believe there isn’t a god.
If you read where people said that not all atheists believe there is no god, you probably also read that I said “OK, I didn’t know there were different types of atheists, I’m only talking about the ones that believe there is no god”. Then, I’m not sure why you’d point that out now. My position is clear, I’m only talking about people who really believe there are no creators. For me, that’s just that, a belief. I think we shouldn’t believe matters we can’t grasp, one way or the other.
An analogy is an analogy, it doesn’t have to be a perfect analogy, the idea can be understood. In that analogy all of humanity is the blind person. We may be able to see the colors in the future once we gain more knowledge and understanding… Until then, we’re just guessing. I’d prefer if people didn’t guess, I’d prefer if people had no issue accepting their ignorance and their relevance in the universe.
“I don’t believe there is a God because humans haven’t gathered the evidence of it”. That just seems too egocentric to me, as if humans had the universe figured out.
“I believe there is no god” and “I believe there is a god” seem just as likely to me based on what humans understand.
“I believe there is a god” seems less likely, given the evidence. It only seems equally likely if you arbitrarily put god above everything else. Something someone only does if they think it is important to keep the idea alive.
Again, we don’t really understand the nature of the universe. We barely understand some of its rules, probably in a very incomplete or scoped way. Whatever you choose to believe in this matter is just a guess.
One day we’ll probably understand the inner workings, we’ll probably be able to simulate the actual origin, we’ll be able to figure out all the interactions. Until that day arrives, if it ever does, we should just stop playing this guessing game and accept we just don’t know.
Is it really hard to just say “I don’t really know, believing anything about matters I don’t really understand isn’t productive, let’s focus on actually gathering knowledge instead of fighting about who’s got the best guess”?
Yes, it is.
If we don’t see evidence, then clinging onto the concept just because people have believed in it in the past doesn’t make sense.
Because if not for that, we wouldn’t be having this conversation. Because we wouldn’t have a concept of there possibly, maybe being a god in the first place.