I’m not a fan - i totally understand why Venice is doing this, but this is a violation of my freedom of movement as a EU citizen. I’m allowed to visit every country in the EU without restrictions and I’m allowed to walk over every public space there if I want to. If Venice is allowed to do a 5€ entrance fee for their public spaces and the whole city, there is nothing preventing another rich people town from imposing a 5000€ entry fee or something like that and I really don’t like that.
How is it breaking new legal ground, if toll roads already exist and are legal and overnight stay tax (aka tourist tax) is too?
Those are related to use of infrastructure/services.
So is this?
Going to the German island of Norderney also costs a fee. Not sure the ferry, but you also pay a certain amount of money per Day. It’s called Kurtaxe and it’s quite similar to the proposed fee
Kurtaxe is usually just charged per overnight stay in most places. Is that different in Norderney?
In a lot of places it already applies if you enter the beach, so this is not something new I reckon.
I get your point, but this is not about your rights as an EU citizen. I am an Italian citizen and I also have to pay, we are getting the same treatment.
Yeah, it’s indeed more comparable to the issues with fees to access beaches that already exist in many places. But of course that is an issue because it limits access to public spaces to people who can afford the fee.
True to an extent, although that is a bit of a can of worms on its own. I don’t know if there are any EU laws on the matter, but for what concerns Italian law they can’t charge you just for accessing the beach.
Meaning, you have the right to pass through it (as it’s public soil) as well as accessing the sea (cause again, it’s public). If you use the beach for anything other than walking through it (including sitting, lying down and such) I think the licensee is allowed to charge you. I say it’s a can of worms because in practice some places will forbid you access or make it functionally impossible with barriers and such. And usually people can’t be bothered to call the cops and fill out papers, so they just go around them.
Ah, thanks, IIrc the rules are similar in Germany.
not the ideal place to bring up freedom of movement. Better to fight for it in other matters. For example border checks between Austria and Bavaria that have been going on for years now.
This absolutely does not violate the EU’s guarantee of freedom of movement for citizens. You’re conflating your intuition about how that works (“as an EU citizen i have the right to access any and all public spaces without restriction”) with what it actually means (EU member states must treat citizens of other EU member states the same way they treat their own citizens wrt entrance, access to employment, taxation and access to government services).
I think, like you, that what they’re doing sucks. I think it sucks less than the alternative, which is that the city become nearly uninhabitable to long term residents due to the tourism crush. But this absolutely isn’t a freedom of movement issue and to call it one makes you sound like Americans who think that getting banned from Facebook violates their free speech.
Not everything is always a slippery slope argument…Also good luck enforcing this in any other city. This only works in venice because there are only a few ways to get in. To do that in lets say nice you would need to fortify the city…That will just not happen.
Only a small number of countries have full freedom of movement within their own borders (freedom to roam) and Sweden is one of them (allemansrätten) but plenty of other countries don’t. EU freedom of movement only means you can cross borders between EU countries (with related rights for employment, market access, etc). Where you can go within is decided by each country.
Freedom of movement only applies if the restriction on entry is different between nations. If everyone needs to pay the fee, then it is hard to argue that this is restricting your rights.
The thing is you pay a tourist tax if you stay in the city itself already.
The fee will be imposed also on Italian citizens, so doesn’t impact at all the right to free movement inside the EU.
UK Citizen here. I’m not a fan of not being part of the EU because of some idiotic referendum “to keep the illegals out”. It hurts my freedom.
But what do I do?
This isn’t about you.
That’s not Ve(ry)nice of them.
It’s fair. Have you seen how swamped they get by tourists some days?
They live in a town that smells like sewers and their only way if getting by is by tourism
It’s mainly for cruises, if I have to guess.
Hotels outside the city are much much cheaper, so many people take the train in.
Tourist tax is a thing in many touristy places in Europe, you usually pay it in cash to the hotel or guesthouse owner and it’s around €1 per person-night. So charging €5 for tourists not staying overnight is totally fine and it’s weird they didn’t do it before.
But how do you even enforce it?
There is only one bridge entering the city from the mainland
Some coastal cities in Germany do this too for their beaches. They do spot checks
If they have things like tollways, they can ask for proof of citizenship or proof of reservation
Venice is sinking and is small. So many people want to visit, I think it’s fair.
I don’t really care about the fee, but the damage is done isn’t it? How many natives still live there who aren’t directly involved in the tourism industry?
To be fair, since the city isn’t really fit for modern ship trading, it would be abandoned if not for tourism. Or be an exclusive hideout for rich people? You can’t really preserve a city in a bubble.
I was in Amsterdam about a year ago with my wife to show her the city and it was insane. We were at the red light district around 11pm and police were there to guide people through the streets. You were only allowed (and able) to walk in a single direction because people density was literally a point away from crushing density.
I fully agree with that Amsterdam and places like it have way, WAY too many tourists
Maybe they just need to start charging an entry fee for that area of the city. Keep increasing the fee until the numbers reach a sane level. Supply and demand.
Or, to go the other direction on it, might be possible to convert the street into an arcade with a walkable roof, make the whole thing basically two-story to double the capacity.
I think that the bigger problem is that Europe needs a Las Vegas, because at least from what I’ve read, a lot of people in Amsterdam don’t want to be it, and Amsterdam isn’t really in a great position to massively scale up – but the demand is there.
I think
🤔
You don’t know how Amsterdam works, or dutch urbanisation in general.
What Amsterdam needs (and does) is less hotels, less Airbnb’s. If tourists can’t sleep there’s they’ll stay away
Also, las Vegas is a horrible god forsaken place. I’ve been there a number of times and it’s like Disneyland with Cancer. People living there live horrible lives on comparison with Dutch cities and the entire place is so artificial that in 20 years from now when the last well is dried out, the city will cease to exist. It’s too all the bad that America has to offer
Venice already feels like a theme park. Might as well lean into it
I don’t know why some people are so outraged. It’s not any different to well established practices in other countries. Germany, Austria, Netherlands, Italy (Alps part)… all have similar guest fees. Sometimes you pay them as part of your stay, sometimes separately.
At least in Germany they always are attached to overnight stays afaik
I’m not sure how you’d enforce such a fee generally except for cities like Venice that get a lot of visitors by cruise ship
Ticket gates at the port.
Yes and no. Things like beach usage might have a fee attached if you’re not a resident which is then waived if you paid the hotel tax. There’s also going to be free beaches, but don’t expect those to be nice, have kiosks, whatnot. Essentially municipal-level private beaches.
I know at least one german municipality where the beach is only allowed to be entered with a Kurticket, at least thats what a sign says, I didnt need to show my card once.
I know Waren has a day fee in addition to the night fee.
Lol been in waren multiple times (never at a hotell tho) and havent heard anything about it.
5 month now. Maybe you have been there before or outside the taxed area
Ive been in the centrum, but always slept in Village a little outside the city. Well technically I once slept at the water in the centrum
This is outrageous!
I’m not gonna visit Venice again. Maybe I should book some more intercontinental flights to turn Venice into Atlantis.
/s
Hardly a deterrent for people arriving in cruise ships.
Yeah, but this is definitely an attempt to get some money from them. Cruise ships are the worst when it comes to providing tourism dollars.
I can’t imagine the European Union will let this slip.
I can!
Italian citizens are subject to the fee as well.
They will since it’s already a thing in a lot of places. E.g. German beaches (Kurtaxe). I think Italian beaches as well, albeit that it’s private companies with leases there.
Gentrification yaaaay
Almost no one lives in Venice anymore. The residents ran away because of the tourists already, mostly in the nearby city Mestre.
