OK, so you recognize intersex people. Good. Let’s start there. So we can have people who appear like men or women who actually have the genitals of the opposite (or both), right? OK, so what caused that development? Usually it’s related to chromosomes, but that isn’t actually the cause. The thing that creates the differentiation is what hormones they have. The chromosomes usually are what controls their output though, so it’s correlated.
OK, so we recognize that hormones are the thing that actually causes this. What happens when we artificially control what hormones are in the body? Does it matter what could have happened if we subvert that and control it manually? Which part is biologically deciding their gender? Isn’t it the thing actually being expressed? If that’s the case, then aren’t they biologically women?
There’s more to biology than you learned in your high school bio class (that you probably failed). “Basic biology” is, as the name implies, basic and not a full understanding. Anyone appealing to “basic biology” is admitting they don’t actually understand any more than that.
(Just FYI so you can know where I’m coming from, I’m a cisgendered straight white man. This doesn’t effect me directly, so I’m not arguing from self preservation. This shouldn’t matter, but some people would probably discount the opinions of trans people as “arguing from emotion” or some bullshit just to ignore them.)
If that’s the case, then aren’t they *biologically* women?
Biologically male or female would be more correct as gender is a social construct. Also the term is referring to their original status pre-hormonal or other gender affirming care so no.
that you probably failed
Sorry to disappoint you but I have never failed a subject and have completed higher education.
”basic biology”
You’re the only person here who has used that term.
Also the term is referring to their original status pre-hormonal or other gender affirming care so no.
We already have a far less problematic set of terms for that: Assigned Male at Birth (AMAB) and Assigned Female at Birth (AFAB). “Biological male” is a scientifically misleading phrase that bigots invented to slander trans people and it should not be used by anyone.
This was already explained to you earlier in the thread. “Male” and “female” are, biologically speaking, not distinct and mutually exclusive categories in humans. This is the case naturally, and the terms become even less useful once you account for those who modify parts of their biology, whether by surgery or by artificially triggering natural biological processes, to bring those parts into congruence with other parts of their biology.
“Biological male” is a slur. It has no basis in science. It’s a term coined by bigots to misgender trans people with sciencey-sounding words so their abuse looks reasonable at a glance, in much the same way that proponents of Scientific Racism use pseudoscience in an attempt to legitimize white supremacy.
“Male” and “female” are, biologically speaking, not distinct and mutually exclusive categories in humans.
They are and you repeating a claim without evidence does nothing.
Sexual dimorphism is real and artificial means of changing or replicating some parts of sexual dimorphism does not invalidate the underlying biology at play.
Which biological process do you think that term refers to? If you can’t pinpoint a single specific one, and have that make sense and have every person agree with you, then it’s clearly not useful.
The only thing thats useful about it is it allows someone to be a bigot andact like they’re intellectually superior (while also managing to be less precise and generally incorrect).
So my answer must be simple, when discussing a complex topic, but you will circle back to claims of complexity to dismiss anything I say.
That is hardly a good faith response.
I would say it is the sum of biological processes that result in the expected sexual dimorphism observed within the majority of the population, resulting in biologically male or female traits.
It only needs to be simple if you say it should be simple. Biological male is a bad term because it implies some simple binary, which doesn’t exist. If it does exist, then you should be able to tell me specifically which biological process it refers to.
I would say it is the sum of biological processes that result in the expected sexual dimorphism observed within the majority of the population, resulting in biologically male or female traits.
Fine answer. OK, so when someone takes HRT they are modifying these biological processes to fit with their chosen gender, correct? So they are now biologically their chosen gender, according to your definition, right? They are not the gender assigned at birth anymore.
I never said HRT was “sex change” though I would argue it potentially changes your sex, based on some definition of sex.
I did in another comment refer to a sex change surgery, which may be what you’re referring to. Yeah, that has other names, but the point of that comment was the language is something we’re working backwards to, and not something we should work forward from, unlike what you implied with your comment that was on. Whatever it’s called, that’s not an argument for what effect it has. We change the names of things as we evolve our understanding. We don’t understand based on what things are called.
I know the difference between sex and gender. My point has been consistently that sex is hazy. It is not a binary, and calling someone “biologically male” who does not want to be called that is a snobby way to be an asshole, particularly because “biologically male” doesn’t mean much, if anything. Assigned gender at birth is clear and there are no questions, so use that. If they’re undergoing HRT and/or gender reassignment surgery, their biology is no longer that of their birth, so they are not “biologically male.” Do you agree with this, or are you going to continue arguing that you were totally right the whole time? If you think you were right, which part of biology is the sex identifier? You haven’t answered that.
Biologically male or female would be more correct as gender is a social construct.
I’m just using the term they used.
Also the term is referring to their original status pre-hormonal or other gender affirming care so no.
AFAB/AMAB is for the original status.
You’re the only person here who has used that term.
The logic you’re coming from is what’s taught in basic biology. You didn’t use the term, but you used the knowledge. I bet this politician has used the term though, but I’m not going to dig to find out because I don’t really care.
No, it’s not. What part makes someone “biologically” male or female? If their hormones are such that they are growing in the manner you’d expect for a male or female then they are biologically that sex, regardless of what they were at birth. Your chromosomes are not your biology. A(M/F)AB is unambiguous and clear. Biologically male or female could be referring to a number of biological processes in their body, many/most of which are associated with their chosen gender if they’re undergoing HRT.
And we call it sex change surgery despite not changing your chromosomes (which is what 99.9% of the “biological sex” people refer to). If your point is the language is flawed, I agree. If your point is that the flawed language is accurate, I don’t. What is sex? If your answer has anything that is modified by hormones then you agree that sex is much more complicated than a single binary, and biological sex is a misleading, oversimplified, and inaccurate term.
OK, so you recognize intersex people. Good. Let’s start there. So we can have people who appear like men or women who actually have the genitals of the opposite (or both), right? OK, so what caused that development? Usually it’s related to chromosomes, but that isn’t actually the cause. The thing that creates the differentiation is what hormones they have. The chromosomes usually are what controls their output though, so it’s correlated.
OK, so we recognize that hormones are the thing that actually causes this. What happens when we artificially control what hormones are in the body? Does it matter what could have happened if we subvert that and control it manually? Which part is biologically deciding their gender? Isn’t it the thing actually being expressed? If that’s the case, then aren’t they biologically women?
There’s more to biology than you learned in your high school bio class (that you probably failed). “Basic biology” is, as the name implies, basic and not a full understanding. Anyone appealing to “basic biology” is admitting they don’t actually understand any more than that.
(Just FYI so you can know where I’m coming from, I’m a cisgendered straight white man. This doesn’t effect me directly, so I’m not arguing from self preservation. This shouldn’t matter, but some people would probably discount the opinions of trans people as “arguing from emotion” or some bullshit just to ignore them.)
Biologically male or female would be more correct as gender is a social construct. Also the term is referring to their original status pre-hormonal or other gender affirming care so no.
Sorry to disappoint you but I have never failed a subject and have completed higher education.
You’re the only person here who has used that term.
We already have a far less problematic set of terms for that: Assigned Male at Birth (AMAB) and Assigned Female at Birth (AFAB). “Biological male” is a scientifically misleading phrase that bigots invented to slander trans people and it should not be used by anyone.
The phrase seems to be very clear in meaning, could you tell me what you find misleading about it?
Because it’s a meaninglessly vague phrase that is just a mirror into what you already believe.
This was already explained to you earlier in the thread. “Male” and “female” are, biologically speaking, not distinct and mutually exclusive categories in humans. This is the case naturally, and the terms become even less useful once you account for those who modify parts of their biology, whether by surgery or by artificially triggering natural biological processes, to bring those parts into congruence with other parts of their biology.
“Biological male” is a slur. It has no basis in science. It’s a term coined by bigots to misgender trans people with sciencey-sounding words so their abuse looks reasonable at a glance, in much the same way that proponents of Scientific Racism use pseudoscience in an attempt to legitimize white supremacy.
They are and you repeating a claim without evidence does nothing.
Sexual dimorphism is real and artificial means of changing or replicating some parts of sexual dimorphism does not invalidate the underlying biology at play.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_dimorphism
Male and female are so indistinguishable that it’s possible to identify them by their pelvis alone.
Unfortunate origins aside male is jot a gender and therefore not misgendering. Biological man is misgendering.
What do you think will be the outcome of arguing that sex and gender are the same? That’s literally the side of the argument you have chosen.
Either they’re separate and gender can be changed or they’re the same… and you disagree with trans rights.
Which biological process do you think that term refers to? If you can’t pinpoint a single specific one, and have that make sense and have every person agree with you, then it’s clearly not useful.
The only thing thats useful about it is it allows someone to be a bigot and act like they’re intellectually superior (while also managing to be less precise and generally incorrect).
So my answer must be simple, when discussing a complex topic, but you will circle back to claims of complexity to dismiss anything I say.
That is hardly a good faith response.
I would say it is the sum of biological processes that result in the expected sexual dimorphism observed within the majority of the population, resulting in biologically male or female traits.
It only needs to be simple if you say it should be simple. Biological male is a bad term because it implies some simple binary, which doesn’t exist. If it does exist, then you should be able to tell me specifically which biological process it refers to.
Fine answer. OK, so when someone takes HRT they are modifying these biological processes to fit with their chosen gender, correct? So they are now biologically their chosen gender, according to your definition, right? They are not the gender assigned at birth anymore.
HRT is gender affirming care and is not a ‘sex change’ which is outdated and offensive.
It’s odd that you’re trying to ‘debunk’ what you see as a bigoted term and you’ve come full circle to something even worse.
You should look up the difference between sex and gender before you continue arguing down this route.
I never said HRT was “sex change” though I would argue it potentially changes your sex, based on some definition of sex.
I did in another comment refer to a sex change surgery, which may be what you’re referring to. Yeah, that has other names, but the point of that comment was the language is something we’re working backwards to, and not something we should work forward from, unlike what you implied with your comment that was on. Whatever it’s called, that’s not an argument for what effect it has. We change the names of things as we evolve our understanding. We don’t understand based on what things are called.
I know the difference between sex and gender. My point has been consistently that sex is hazy. It is not a binary, and calling someone “biologically male” who does not want to be called that is a snobby way to be an asshole, particularly because “biologically male” doesn’t mean much, if anything. Assigned gender at birth is clear and there are no questions, so use that. If they’re undergoing HRT and/or gender reassignment surgery, their biology is no longer that of their birth, so they are not “biologically male.” Do you agree with this, or are you going to continue arguing that you were totally right the whole time? If you think you were right, which part of biology is the sex identifier? You haven’t answered that.
I’m just using the term they used.
AFAB/AMAB is for the original status.
The logic you’re coming from is what’s taught in basic biology. You didn’t use the term, but you used the knowledge. I bet this politician has used the term though, but I’m not going to dig to find out because I don’t really care.
You’re literally splitting hairs when the phrases mean the same thing.
No, it’s not. What part makes someone “biologically” male or female? If their hormones are such that they are growing in the manner you’d expect for a male or female then they are biologically that sex, regardless of what they were at birth. Your chromosomes are not your biology. A(M/F)AB is unambiguous and clear. Biologically male or female could be referring to a number of biological processes in their body, many/most of which are associated with their chosen gender if they’re undergoing HRT.
Show me a research paper that makes this claim. It is called gender affirming care and not sex affirming care for a reason.
And we call it sex change surgery despite not changing your chromosomes (which is what 99.9% of the “biological sex” people refer to). If your point is the language is flawed, I agree. If your point is that the flawed language is accurate, I don’t. What is sex? If your answer has anything that is modified by hormones then you agree that sex is much more complicated than a single binary, and biological sex is a misleading, oversimplified, and inaccurate term.