so we all have to get offended on behalf of people who strongly identify with codified European Phrenology?
But my point is that people who don’t give a fuck about that identity are still subject to it. Whiteness is an ingrained social phenomenon. It’s in the US census!
A person who doesn’t consider themselves white is still considered white by a society, regardless of mass groups like entire nationalities/races to move between classification or determine new classes. Yes, there is (for lack of a better work) mobility of races between classes, but that doesn’t change that typical people will look at another person and decide if they are white or not, and that other person’s opinion or lack of one doesn’t matter. If a light-skinned European-American puts ‘Black’ on their census form, this has approximately 0 effect on anything.
should we all start identifying as capitalists because our lives are defined by capitalist social relations outside our control
No, the analogue would be that even if we decide to identity as socialists, we still live within capitalist social relations imposed on us, until we overcome that system. Until we overcome whiteness, we are subject to our society’s (dynamic) interpretation of it. An individual does not have the transformative power necessary to change their own imposed whiteness class, even if large groups do over time.
But my point is that people who don’t give a fuck about that identity are still subject to it. Whiteness is an ingrained social phenomenon. It’s in the US census!
I’m not disputing that reality, I’m disputing your response to that fact
A person who doesn’t consider themselves white is still considered white by a society
Not me, I don’t identify as white and society at large doesn’t see me as white unless I happen to pass on any given day, but the US census considers me white and a certain delusional minority of my ehtnic in-group consider me and themselves white, and I’m not an anomaly, this is the reality for so many ethnic groups who don’t fall cleanly into this thing you present as being so cleanly divided
That’s why I said it’s ironic, cause your argument only really applies to dark skinned black people who don’t have the economic and social power to overcome this kind of codification
Not me, I don’t identify as white and society at large doesn’t see me as white unless I happen to pass on any given day, but the US census considers me white and a certain delusional minority of my ehtnic in-group consider me and themselves white, and I’m not an anomaly, this is the reality for so many ethnic groups who don’t fall cleanly into this thing you present as being so cleanly divided
Good point, it was silly of me to say that so absolutely. Thanks for explaining.
That said, many people aren’t able to pass between groups, and like you said dark skinned black people are a major example. And I think the appearance side is a bigger part than economic and social power for dark skinned black people: they’re the original definition of ‘black’, labeled after their skin tone, just like certain Europeans were the original definition of ‘white’, likewise, before all the coping mechanisms were added later as different demographics came into play. Does social and economic power allow either of those two groups to shift? I have read a niche theory that tomboyism in the US was considered a whiteness transgression, but apart from that strange example I can’t think of a case where a light-skinned native European is broadly considered non-white passing.
Then again, as I said in a different reply chain, I’m not US and my area’s definition of whiteness seems more focused on race than social factors (like language and culture) or economic class. So this could be why I’m not noticing things that are the case in the US.
But my point is that people who don’t give a fuck about that identity are still subject to it. Whiteness is an ingrained social phenomenon. It’s in the US census!
A person who doesn’t consider themselves white is still considered white by a society, regardless of mass groups like entire nationalities/races to move between classification or determine new classes. Yes, there is (for lack of a better work) mobility of races between classes, but that doesn’t change that typical people will look at another person and decide if they are white or not, and that other person’s opinion or lack of one doesn’t matter. If a light-skinned European-American puts ‘Black’ on their census form, this has approximately 0 effect on anything.
No, the analogue would be that even if we decide to identity as socialists, we still live within capitalist social relations imposed on us, until we overcome that system. Until we overcome whiteness, we are subject to our society’s (dynamic) interpretation of it. An individual does not have the transformative power necessary to change their own imposed whiteness class, even if large groups do over time.
I’m not disputing that reality, I’m disputing your response to that fact
Not me, I don’t identify as white and society at large doesn’t see me as white unless I happen to pass on any given day, but the US census considers me white and a certain delusional minority of my ehtnic in-group consider me and themselves white, and I’m not an anomaly, this is the reality for so many ethnic groups who don’t fall cleanly into this thing you present as being so cleanly divided
That’s why I said it’s ironic, cause your argument only really applies to dark skinned black people who don’t have the economic and social power to overcome this kind of codification
Good point, it was silly of me to say that so absolutely. Thanks for explaining.
That said, many people aren’t able to pass between groups, and like you said dark skinned black people are a major example. And I think the appearance side is a bigger part than economic and social power for dark skinned black people: they’re the original definition of ‘black’, labeled after their skin tone, just like certain Europeans were the original definition of ‘white’, likewise, before all the coping mechanisms were added later as different demographics came into play. Does social and economic power allow either of those two groups to shift? I have read a niche theory that tomboyism in the US was considered a whiteness transgression, but apart from that strange example I can’t think of a case where a light-skinned native European is broadly considered non-white passing.
Then again, as I said in a different reply chain, I’m not US and my area’s definition of whiteness seems more focused on race than social factors (like language and culture) or economic class. So this could be why I’m not noticing things that are the case in the US.