I already negotiate. Every couple years I interview around, I get a job offer, I take it back it my employer and they either match it or I leave. I've personally increased my salary 6x since I've joined the industry about a decade ago, I know people who have increased it more. I don't know anyone in a unionized field who's managed to achieved anything like this. I don't know that it's impossible, just seems to be much more rare. I'm a specialized individual in a specialized industry, I already have bargaining power and I definitely reject that my compensation, benefits, job stability, and WLB would be better if I had been unionized this whole time.
I’d be interested to learn more, do you have a source or anything?
Like I said, first hand. Purely anecdotal, I'm sure it isn't the case for all union jobs.
This does suck though. To start, a counter-offer-based model begs discrimination. You should be getting yearly raises commensurate with (at absolute bare minimum, not even necessarily accounting for inflation) the increase in productivity from year to year.
This is to say nothing of work environments. Unions could reduce or end crunch. Not just as hard blockers, but mandating the kind of project management that doesn't require crunch.
This does suck though. To start, a counter-offer-based model begs discrimination. You should be getting yearly raises commensurate with (at absolute bare minimum, not even necessarily accounting for inflation) the increase in productivity from year to year.
I see that a lot with just the starting percentages of yearly raises. Most companies never keep up with market value, and by the time you've spent ten years there, you're making much lower than the industry standard.
The worst is employers who have some 1-5 scale for yearly performance and they gatekeep bosses who try to give out too many 5s. It's not a competition among your peers. If the whole team is doing good and working hard, then reward all of them.
I don't know about discrimination, you'd have to provide actual statistical evidence of that for me to believe it.
I do get yearly raises, they've beaten inflation by a lot every year except for one. I left that job and took a 30% compensation increase elsewhere.
I rarely see crunch time. I have no problems whatsoever with the frequency and intensity of it, but if it became a problem I'd leave and find a job elsewhere.
I don't work in silicon valley, but they make a lot more than I do and my wage doesn't feel suppressed lol.
The job market in tech is alive and well in my experience. There was overhiring during the pandemic which ended with some layoffs, I don't see that as the market turning, but we'll have to wait and see.
I know Lemmy wants everyone everywhere unionized, but for me in my industry the arguments for it are hand wavy at best. I find it disingenuous to tell people in this industry that they don't have bargaining power as an individual.
It’s not that you don’t have individual bargaining power. It’s just that if you were unionised, you’d have much more.
The extent to which you are arguing against overwhelming evidence cannot be understated. You are arguing against something less controversial than evolution.
We know that unions promote economic equality and build worker power, helping workers to win increases in pay, better benefits, and safer working conditions.
But that’s not all unions do. Unions also have powerful effects on workers’ lives outside of work.
Right, and what percentage of unions are successfully negotiating 50% pay raises? Surface level nuance free thought experiments aren't going to convince me here
It was an analogy. The point is that a union gives you stronger negotiation power than you have alone. By not being in a union, you’re getting worse outcomes than you would have in a union. All of the statistics we have demonstrate that unionising results in a big increase in wages and benefits. You’re basically saying “no” because you think you know better than the science. This is just like anti-vax sentiment.
You've sent zero statistics and I've yet to see any statistics or even anecdotal evidence that pertains to my industry. All you've done is promise ridiculous benefits like 50% salary increases through unrealistic analogies. My experience is purely anecdotal, but frankly it's better evidence than pipe dream analogies.
But sure, go around calling people anti-vax because you don't know how to put together a proper argument, I'm sure that's how you get people to change their minds about unionization. Why would I continue this conversation at this point? If this is something you're passionate about I'd rethink your strategy.
Every couple years I interview around, I get a job offer, I take it back it my employer and they either match it or I leave.
I don't even have to do that. My employer always give me good raises and even better bonuses. Every year.
Benefits are great. PTO is great. Work-life balance is great. No layoffs whatsoever. It's not just about making money for the company and the owners, but the rest of the employees as well.
I don't need the strife from trying to start a union here. Save it for companies that have pushed their employees too far. Unionize where it's going to have the greatest benefit.
Ever talked to the cleaning staff how they're faring? Your suppliers in Cambodia (or wherever)?
It's not that hard for capital to see reason when it comes to specialised, educated, and sometimes right out irreplaceable workers, but that doesn't mean that capital suddenly developed a conscience.
You know perfectly well what I meant and the intent and purpose behind my comment. Try again.
And even if you're working in a five person co-op outfit and someone of you indeed does scrub the toilet: What about the dishwashers at that Chinese takeout you order at every other day. How does your actual supply chain look like, even if it's pizza and coffee.
What are you arguing about exactly? Not a single comment in this chain is anti union at all, and the comment you replied to even argued for unionization where it will have the greatest benefit, i.e. all the jobs you just mentioned.
Why are you acting like this is some sort of prisoner's dilemma where either everyone unionizes or no one does?
That's great, I'm finally at a point in my career where I think it'll be the same. As long as there isn't a major culture shift, I could see myself staying at this job for the next 10+ years
I definitely reject that my compensation, benefits, job stability, and WLB would be better if I had been unionized this whole time.
Why? What is your reasoning for rejecting this? Can you justify it? You’re just saying “no” without any thought or explanation. Do you just refuse to believe that things could be better?
And frankly that's not how this works. You're the one trying to convince me that a union is in my best interest, the burden of proof is on you and you've given no substantial evidence.
I read your whole comment, but at no point does it explain why you think you wouldn’t be able to negotiate improvements with a union. What you have written essentially amounts to:
“I was able to build a really beautiful cabinet with hand tools. I reject the notion that power tools make it easier to build cabinets. I know people who have power tools but they haven’t made cabinets as nice as mine.”
If you have multiple people as a group who have the power to completely sink a business negotiating together, they stand a much better chance of improving conditions than any of them do alone.
How are you reasoning against such a self-evidently true claim?
My point is that skilled individuals in specialized fields already have strong individual bargaining power, something that you continue to underestimate in this thread. Collective bargaining is not risk free with one outcome, this is a fact that all the nuance free analogies in the world won't change. If the sector is overall happy with individual bargaining power you're going to need more proof than supposed "self-evident" claims.
Let me fix your analogy. A power tool salesman walks up to my door and tells me I have to throw out my hand tools because I can build cabinets much faster without them and then calls me an idiot for not wanting to throw away the tools I've mastered over the last decade.
I’m in the same field as you are with years more experience. Not only that, I have experience in management in the same field.
I am not denying that you have individual bargaining power that I’m sure you’re leveraging successfully.
I am just pointing out to you that if you were unionised, you’d have even more bargaining power which would almost definitely have resulted in a better outcome for you.
Collective bargaining may not be risk free, but it’s lower risk than individual bargaining, by definition.
There’s plenty of proof, and I don’t see why I need any more. You’re just refusing to acknowledge it, like a flat earther faced with the results of their experiment refusing to accept it. Just because you say “no, I don’t like this scientific proof” it doesn’t mean that I’m somehow failing to back up my argument when I refuse to give you more proof. You have THE proof of the matter. Accept it and be right, or reject it and be wrong. It’s up to you.
As for your analogy, being in a union does not mean you lose your individual bargaining rights, you can continue to negotiate your salary individually if you wish to do so. You do not lose any power or rights from being in a union. You only gain power.
I’m in the same field as you are with years more experience.
Lol is this the point in your argument where you call me a kid?
Collective bargaining may not be risk free, but it’s lower risk than individual bargaining, by definition.
Lower risk often means lower reward, and I already consider individual bargaining in my field low risk.
There’s plenty of proof, and I don’t see why I need any more.
You've provided exactly zero links in this thread.
like a flat earther
And there it is! Again! So far you've called me anti-vax and a flat earther because your unlinked evidence and shitty anologies aren't convincing me of unproven theories in my field. This conversation is over and you've done more to hurt your cause than help here you condescending prick.
I appreciate the good faith you're putting into this. I tend to lean your way, but it's interesting to see this discussion play out. Thanks for being respectful. I appreciate it, even though (up to this comment) I'm just observing the thread.
Until this moment you haven’t asked me for any sources for my claim, whereas I have asked you multiple times for yours. Your basis is “just my
vibes” and now you’re acting like I’m an asshole for pointing out that your position (arguing against science based on vibes) isn’t rational. Now by claiming I haven’t backed up my claims, despite pretty much accepting that they were valid until this moment, you cast me as irrational, and instead of asking for proof of my claims so you can amend your perspective, you just loftily declare that the conversation is over, because you know fine well that if it continues, your world view will be completely compromised.
Anyone who wants to see the proof can simply Google “average wage difference for unionised workers” or anything like that. You can do the same thing. I’m guessing you already have, but decided “that doesn’t apply to me” because you’re oh so special.
Lower risk often means lower reward
For investment and such, yeah sure, but not everything follows the same pattern. Unionising and collective bargaining is a perfect example, because it consistently has been shown to lower risks and increase rewards, again and again.
Act all indignant if you want to. You’re giving me a perfect platform to demonstrate the superiority of my ideology against your very weak, irrational reasoning. If you think that I’m somehow hurting my cause by revealing the inherent incoherence of your position, then yeah, sure, I’m really destroying my cause right now.
I'm not in games, but if/when things start to turn, it's far easier for myself and the people around me to just leave for an employer that treats us right than to try to unionize and force the current one to behave. Those are the benefits of having a job that's very much in demand though, not to mention one that can be worked from home and isn't dependent on geography, so the union isn't necessary because the employees already hold enough power. If the employer has a monopoly on your jobs, being able to unionize is a powerful tool in your toolbelt.
the funny thing is actual ability to pay is varying from business to business. AAA development with in-house engine is simply inferior as a business compared to mobile gamedev or producing shitty battle royale clones with Unity. If some business can't compete with big tech or low-effort money grabbers, does it mean it has to go?
I already negotiate. Every couple years I interview around, I get a job offer, I take it back it my employer and they either match it or I leave. I've personally increased my salary 6x since I've joined the industry about a decade ago, I know people who have increased it more. I don't know anyone in a unionized field who's managed to achieved anything like this. I don't know that it's impossible, just seems to be much more rare. I'm a specialized individual in a specialized industry, I already have bargaining power and I definitely reject that my compensation, benefits, job stability, and WLB would be better if I had been unionized this whole time.
Like I said, first hand. Purely anecdotal, I'm sure it isn't the case for all union jobs.
This does suck though. To start, a counter-offer-based model begs discrimination. You should be getting yearly raises commensurate with (at absolute bare minimum, not even necessarily accounting for inflation) the increase in productivity from year to year.
This is to say nothing of work environments. Unions could reduce or end crunch. Not just as hard blockers, but mandating the kind of project management that doesn't require crunch.
There's also a history of wage suppression.
https://www.inc.com/jeremy-quittner/silicon-valley-wage-collusion-class-action.html
They'll only get better at it, especially as the market continues to turn and companies continue to consolidate.
I see that a lot with just the starting percentages of yearly raises. Most companies never keep up with market value, and by the time you've spent ten years there, you're making much lower than the industry standard.
The worst is employers who have some 1-5 scale for yearly performance and they gatekeep bosses who try to give out too many 5s. It's not a competition among your peers. If the whole team is doing good and working hard, then reward all of them.
I don't know about discrimination, you'd have to provide actual statistical evidence of that for me to believe it.
I do get yearly raises, they've beaten inflation by a lot every year except for one. I left that job and took a 30% compensation increase elsewhere.
I rarely see crunch time. I have no problems whatsoever with the frequency and intensity of it, but if it became a problem I'd leave and find a job elsewhere.
I don't work in silicon valley, but they make a lot more than I do and my wage doesn't feel suppressed lol.
The job market in tech is alive and well in my experience. There was overhiring during the pandemic which ended with some layoffs, I don't see that as the market turning, but we'll have to wait and see.
I know Lemmy wants everyone everywhere unionized, but for me in my industry the arguments for it are hand wavy at best. I find it disingenuous to tell people in this industry that they don't have bargaining power as an individual.
It’s not that you don’t have individual bargaining power. It’s just that if you were unionised, you’d have much more.
The extent to which you are arguing against overwhelming evidence cannot be understated. You are arguing against something less controversial than evolution.
High unionization levels are associated with positive outcomes across multiple indicators of economic, personal, and democratic well-being
How unions help all workers
Unions provide major economic benefits for workers and families
Like I said, hand wavy at best
How is it hand wavy?!
Imagine you are an employer with 100 employees, presented with the following situations.
In which of these two situations are you more likely to be willing to grant that 50% raise?
Right, and what percentage of unions are successfully negotiating 50% pay raises? Surface level nuance free thought experiments aren't going to convince me here
It was an analogy. The point is that a union gives you stronger negotiation power than you have alone. By not being in a union, you’re getting worse outcomes than you would have in a union. All of the statistics we have demonstrate that unionising results in a big increase in wages and benefits. You’re basically saying “no” because you think you know better than the science. This is just like anti-vax sentiment.
You've sent zero statistics and I've yet to see any statistics or even anecdotal evidence that pertains to my industry. All you've done is promise ridiculous benefits like 50% salary increases through unrealistic analogies. My experience is purely anecdotal, but frankly it's better evidence than pipe dream analogies.
But sure, go around calling people anti-vax because you don't know how to put together a proper argument, I'm sure that's how you get people to change their minds about unionization. Why would I continue this conversation at this point? If this is something you're passionate about I'd rethink your strategy.
I don't even have to do that. My employer always give me good raises and even better bonuses. Every year.
Benefits are great. PTO is great. Work-life balance is great. No layoffs whatsoever. It's not just about making money for the company and the owners, but the rest of the employees as well.
I don't need the strife from trying to start a union here. Save it for companies that have pushed their employees too far. Unionize where it's going to have the greatest benefit.
Ever talked to the cleaning staff how they're faring? Your suppliers in Cambodia (or wherever)?
It's not that hard for capital to see reason when it comes to specialised, educated, and sometimes right out irreplaceable workers, but that doesn't mean that capital suddenly developed a conscience.
We don't have cleaning staff. Try again.
You know perfectly well what I meant and the intent and purpose behind my comment. Try again.
And even if you're working in a five person co-op outfit and someone of you indeed does scrub the toilet: What about the dishwashers at that Chinese takeout you order at every other day. How does your actual supply chain look like, even if it's pizza and coffee.
What are you arguing about exactly? Not a single comment in this chain is anti union at all, and the comment you replied to even argued for unionization where it will have the greatest benefit, i.e. all the jobs you just mentioned.
Why are you acting like this is some sort of prisoner's dilemma where either everyone unionizes or no one does?
I'm arguing for solidarity.
Nice buzzword answer, but nobody here is against your right to unionize
That's great, I'm finally at a point in my career where I think it'll be the same. As long as there isn't a major culture shift, I could see myself staying at this job for the next 10+ years
Why? What is your reasoning for rejecting this? Can you justify it? You’re just saying “no” without any thought or explanation. Do you just refuse to believe that things could be better?
… did you not read the rest of my comment?
And frankly that's not how this works. You're the one trying to convince me that a union is in my best interest, the burden of proof is on you and you've given no substantial evidence.
I read your whole comment, but at no point does it explain why you think you wouldn’t be able to negotiate improvements with a union. What you have written essentially amounts to:
“I was able to build a really beautiful cabinet with hand tools. I reject the notion that power tools make it easier to build cabinets. I know people who have power tools but they haven’t made cabinets as nice as mine.”
If you have multiple people as a group who have the power to completely sink a business negotiating together, they stand a much better chance of improving conditions than any of them do alone.
How are you reasoning against such a self-evidently true claim?
My point is that skilled individuals in specialized fields already have strong individual bargaining power, something that you continue to underestimate in this thread. Collective bargaining is not risk free with one outcome, this is a fact that all the nuance free analogies in the world won't change. If the sector is overall happy with individual bargaining power you're going to need more proof than supposed "self-evident" claims.
Let me fix your analogy. A power tool salesman walks up to my door and tells me I have to throw out my hand tools because I can build cabinets much faster without them and then calls me an idiot for not wanting to throw away the tools I've mastered over the last decade.
I’m in the same field as you are with years more experience. Not only that, I have experience in management in the same field.
I am not denying that you have individual bargaining power that I’m sure you’re leveraging successfully.
I am just pointing out to you that if you were unionised, you’d have even more bargaining power which would almost definitely have resulted in a better outcome for you.
Collective bargaining may not be risk free, but it’s lower risk than individual bargaining, by definition.
There’s plenty of proof, and I don’t see why I need any more. You’re just refusing to acknowledge it, like a flat earther faced with the results of their experiment refusing to accept it. Just because you say “no, I don’t like this scientific proof” it doesn’t mean that I’m somehow failing to back up my argument when I refuse to give you more proof. You have THE proof of the matter. Accept it and be right, or reject it and be wrong. It’s up to you.
As for your analogy, being in a union does not mean you lose your individual bargaining rights, you can continue to negotiate your salary individually if you wish to do so. You do not lose any power or rights from being in a union. You only gain power.
Lol is this the point in your argument where you call me a kid?
Lower risk often means lower reward, and I already consider individual bargaining in my field low risk.
You've provided exactly zero links in this thread.
And there it is! Again! So far you've called me anti-vax and a flat earther because your unlinked evidence and shitty anologies aren't convincing me of unproven theories in my field. This conversation is over and you've done more to hurt your cause than help here you condescending prick.
I appreciate the good faith you're putting into this. I tend to lean your way, but it's interesting to see this discussion play out. Thanks for being respectful. I appreciate it, even though (up to this comment) I'm just observing the thread.
Until this moment you haven’t asked me for any sources for my claim, whereas I have asked you multiple times for yours. Your basis is “just my vibes” and now you’re acting like I’m an asshole for pointing out that your position (arguing against science based on vibes) isn’t rational. Now by claiming I haven’t backed up my claims, despite pretty much accepting that they were valid until this moment, you cast me as irrational, and instead of asking for proof of my claims so you can amend your perspective, you just loftily declare that the conversation is over, because you know fine well that if it continues, your world view will be completely compromised.
Anyone who wants to see the proof can simply Google “average wage difference for unionised workers” or anything like that. You can do the same thing. I’m guessing you already have, but decided “that doesn’t apply to me” because you’re oh so special.
For investment and such, yeah sure, but not everything follows the same pattern. Unionising and collective bargaining is a perfect example, because it consistently has been shown to lower risks and increase rewards, again and again.
Act all indignant if you want to. You’re giving me a perfect platform to demonstrate the superiority of my ideology against your very weak, irrational reasoning. If you think that I’m somehow hurting my cause by revealing the inherent incoherence of your position, then yeah, sure, I’m really destroying my cause right now.
I'm not in games, but if/when things start to turn, it's far easier for myself and the people around me to just leave for an employer that treats us right than to try to unionize and force the current one to behave. Those are the benefits of having a job that's very much in demand though, not to mention one that can be worked from home and isn't dependent on geography, so the union isn't necessary because the employees already hold enough power. If the employer has a monopoly on your jobs, being able to unionize is a powerful tool in your toolbelt.
the funny thing is actual ability to pay is varying from business to business. AAA development with in-house engine is simply inferior as a business compared to mobile gamedev or producing shitty battle royale clones with Unity. If some business can't compete with big tech or low-effort money grabbers, does it mean it has to go?
No, for the same reason that fine dining restaurants don't go out of business when there's a McDonald's around the corner. They're different markets.