• AlDente@sh.itjust.works
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      2
      arrow-down
      2
      ·
      1 year ago

      That's nice, but the claim was that a market cannot exist without a state. It clearly can. Nobody needs to outsource their security. I'm not sure what efficiency has to do with this.

        • AlDente@sh.itjust.works
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          2
          arrow-down
          2
          ·
          edit-2
          1 year ago

          An example of someone taking ownership of their own security? If so, the most basic form would be carrying a firearm for defense instead of relying on police. If you want an example with more of a link to the market, how about a illicit drug dealer who protects their person and property?

          Edit: Upon reflection, it seems that the existence of any black market proves the point.

          • irmoz@reddthat.com
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            2
            ·
            edit-2
            1 year ago

            If you think the black market doesn't have a central authority, you're looking through rose tinted glasses. Whoever has the most money and the most guns at their disposal is the authority. The black market is actually a perfect example of where capitalist market economics lead without regulation.

            • AlDente@sh.itjust.works
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              1
              arrow-down
              1
              ·
              1 year ago

              Hold up, I thought we were talking about the state running things? Of course everything has a central authority; this includes unions, churches, and corporations. Though, we certainly don't need the state for a black market to run its business. However, I guess it wouldn't really be a black market if there wasn't a state to declare things illegal 🤔.

              I absolutely agree with your second half though. The black market is a perfect capitalist example, and I believe it is an inevitable response to state authoritarianism.

              • irmoz@reddthat.com
                link
                fedilink
                arrow-up
                2
                ·
                1 year ago

                Hold up, I thought we were talking about the state running things?

                Why?

                Of course everything has a central authority; this includes unions, churches, and corporations.

                What do you mean, "of course"?

                Though, we certainly don’t need the state for a black market to run its business.

                If there weren't a state, it would just be a "market", not a black market. And as I said, black markets are controlled by the most wealthy and powerful in that market. They are the de facto state of the black market.

                However, I guess it wouldn’t really be a black market if there wasn’t a state to declare things illegal 🤔.

                Exactly, yes.

                I absolutely agree with your second half though. The black market is a perfect capitalist example, and I believe it is an inevitable response to state authoritarianism

                If you consider regulation authoritarian, sure. Or if you're referring to the outlawing of drugs, I somewhat agree. Weapons trading is grey at best, though.

                • AlDente@sh.itjust.works
                  link
                  fedilink
                  arrow-up
                  1
                  arrow-down
                  1
                  ·
                  edit-2
                  1 year ago

                  Why are we talking about the state running things? Because your comment I originally responded to was "sorry, but the market requires a state to protect it. How else are we gonna make sure no one steals our shit?" I believe my responses have been very much on this topic.

                  I disagree that every market requires a state to function. Humans are social beings and will always continue to trade and barter regardless of the form of government, or lack of government. I absolutely disagree that any third-party is needed for protection of property. Now, if we consider all forms of centralized authority as defacto states, sure, I guess I can't compete with those semantics and will have to concede that you are right. In that case, I believe any group of people can be a "state".

                  Now, I've been conversing in good faith, stating my point of view, and even answering one-liner questions. You are clearly against capitalism, and you seem to believe that state protection is necessary for a market to function (please correct me if I'm wrong; I don't want to put words in someone else's mouth). Are you against the idea of markets in general? If so, what replaces the market and how would its authority be any better?

                  • irmoz@reddthat.com
                    link
                    fedilink
                    arrow-up
                    1
                    ·
                    edit-2
                    1 year ago

                    Requiring a state to protect private property isn't "the state running things". Even right-libertarians concede the necessity of state to uphold private property laws. "The state running shit" would be like… a planned economy.

                    Don't equivocate the two, yeah?