A new survey found that American voters have a mutual mistrust of the other side and are open to exploring alternatives to democracy, and that a share of both Democrat and Republican voters believe…
There is no other party people like, say, Mitt Romney can turn to. He's not a Democrat and wouldn't be welcome by Democrat voters. Third party is typically non-viable for a politician in the US. So what do you do? This isn't a hypothetical. Quitting removes a moderate voice from the party that could be replaced with an extremist.
Ideally - yes I think there should be a third party for the whackos to separate them from the mainstream. The US should have at least 4 parties. But that's not an option right now. It's in both parties best interest that it remains that way.
As a start, they could denounce Nazis. Then they could figure out why their policies seem so attractive to Nazis, and change those policies. And they can seek to actively kick them out of their ranks.
And Romney is absolutely a Democrat nowadays. The only people who don't know that are his voters.
In case you weren't aware, there have been multiple party changes over the course of US history. The last one was when the Democratic and Republican parties kind of switched places through the mid-20th century. The political landscape is well-primed for the Republican party to split.
I am. But it would mean the short-term destruction of your own party since our "first past the post" election process would ensure that conservatives lose in large numbers. Unfortunately it could also mean the rise of MAGA over the traditional Republicans since Trump and others, who are very popular, would potentially sway lots of voters.
200 Republican representatives just voted to make a guy implicated in an attempt to overthrow an election their leader. The guy who encouraged and possibly orchestrated it is their leading presidential candidate. The party is MAGA, and in the process, nazifying. Its short-term destruction is better than supporting the rise of white supremacist fascism because you believe in lower taxes for business owners.
But it would mean the short-term destruction of your own party since our “first past the post” election process would ensure that conservatives lose in large numbers. Unfortunately it could also mean the rise of MAGA over the traditional Republicans …
The fascists are here already. They support the Republican party. They have been voting fascists into office for years, using the Republican party to do so. They have demonstrated that they are willing to dismantle a functioning government that servers the people.
If a person still carries water for the Republican party, they are complicit. People of good conscience who have previously identified with the Republican party need to stop supporting it. Whether that means voting for Democrats or creating another party to align with doesn't matter. The choice for Republicans is now "embrace and support fascism" or "leave the Republican party."
I’m not sure I’m a fan of the term “traditionalists,” but since I haven’t landed on a better one, we’ll use it.
Yes, I do. They would be taking their sociopolitical clout, and their votes, away from fascists. This deprives fascists of the power they currently enjoy as a result of latching onto the Republican party.
I dunno. The extremists would now win primaries and be closer to winning seats. Many people who vote “party” will just vote for the extremists instead.
Trump is the “party leader” - I feel like it would further legitimize the nuts. Not having a moderating influence in the party seems more bad to me…
The rise already happened. Trump is the leading candidate for the nomination and the MAGA House reps just unseated the more traditional Conservative speaker and nominated one of their own. And they attempted a violent coup, with support from elected MAGA representatives.
After decades of being dehumanized by conservatives, it's bizarre that you would come up with some bullshit about the left dehumanizing conservatives.
I think 99% of the left is averse to violence and is especially averse to dehumanizing anyone at all. Don't be mad at them. Be mad at me. I am the one not in that 99%. Most folks on the left will argue with me endlessly to try to convince me to see conservatives as humans. You are picking your fight with the wrong people. Pick your fight with me instead.
After decades of being dehumanized by conservatives, it’s bizarre that you would come up with some bullshit about the left dehumanizing conservatives.
It's literally what the comment I replied to was doing. You're just telling me that Democrats are as bad as Republicans - but since it's your team that's okay.
Somehow, you've taken away the opposite of what I said. But, that is to be expected from a conservative. Conservatives are incapable of entering into a conversation in good faith. Honesty is simply not a conservative trait.
At no point have I framed all Republicans as Nazis. But to deny that Nazis have embraced the Republican party and the party has no problem with them in leadership roles is to deny reality.
At no point have I framed all Republicans as Nazis.
It's pretty heavily implied in your context. If it was not your intent then I withdraw part of my statement. You're still using a very politically-charged word to dehumanize some of your opponents.
Maybe @spaceghoti didn't, but I will. If you're still carrying water for the party that, by all appearences, will nominate Donald Trump as their presidential candidate again, you are a fucking fascist.
At least three people have made essentially this point and he’s replied to none of them. He’s only interested in arguments he thinks he can knock down.
The GOP has a serious Nazi problem, and the roots go deep. Many Republicans are happy to call themselves Nazis, Neo-Nazis, white supremacists, etc. Acknowledging this doesn’t dehumanize anyone— it’s just a fact.
Framing all Republicans as "Nazis" is a convenient way to dehumanize your opponents.
Not all Republicans are Nazis. But all Republicans are ok being part of the party that contains Nazis, and having beliefs that align with Nazis.
This says a lot about those people, no?
Associating with Nazis makes one a Nazi. It’s a binary.
Ahh, yes. The "nazi bar" argument.
There is no other party people like, say, Mitt Romney can turn to. He's not a Democrat and wouldn't be welcome by Democrat voters. Third party is typically non-viable for a politician in the US. So what do you do? This isn't a hypothetical. Quitting removes a moderate voice from the party that could be replaced with an extremist.
Ideally - yes I think there should be a third party for the whackos to separate them from the mainstream. The US should have at least 4 parties. But that's not an option right now. It's in both parties best interest that it remains that way.
As a start, they could denounce Nazis. Then they could figure out why their policies seem so attractive to Nazis, and change those policies. And they can seek to actively kick them out of their ranks.
And Romney is absolutely a Democrat nowadays. The only people who don't know that are his voters.
In case you weren't aware, there have been multiple party changes over the course of US history. The last one was when the Democratic and Republican parties kind of switched places through the mid-20th century. The political landscape is well-primed for the Republican party to split.
I am. But it would mean the short-term destruction of your own party since our "first past the post" election process would ensure that conservatives lose in large numbers. Unfortunately it could also mean the rise of MAGA over the traditional Republicans since Trump and others, who are very popular, would potentially sway lots of voters.
200 Republican representatives just voted to make a guy implicated in an attempt to overthrow an election their leader. The guy who encouraged and possibly orchestrated it is their leading presidential candidate. The party is MAGA, and in the process, nazifying. Its short-term destruction is better than supporting the rise of white supremacist fascism because you believe in lower taxes for business owners.
The fascists are here already. They support the Republican party. They have been voting fascists into office for years, using the Republican party to do so. They have demonstrated that they are willing to dismantle a functioning government that servers the people.
If a person still carries water for the Republican party, they are complicit. People of good conscience who have previously identified with the Republican party need to stop supporting it. Whether that means voting for Democrats or creating another party to align with doesn't matter. The choice for Republicans is now "embrace and support fascism" or "leave the Republican party."
Do you think any of that gets better if the traditionalists leave the Republican party?
I’m not sure I’m a fan of the term “traditionalists,” but since I haven’t landed on a better one, we’ll use it.
Yes, I do. They would be taking their sociopolitical clout, and their votes, away from fascists. This deprives fascists of the power they currently enjoy as a result of latching onto the Republican party.
I dunno. The extremists would now win primaries and be closer to winning seats. Many people who vote “party” will just vote for the extremists instead.
Trump is the “party leader” - I feel like it would further legitimize the nuts. Not having a moderating influence in the party seems more bad to me…
The rise already happened. Trump is the leading candidate for the nomination and the MAGA House reps just unseated the more traditional Conservative speaker and nominated one of their own. And they attempted a violent coup, with support from elected MAGA representatives.
After decades of being dehumanized by conservatives, it's bizarre that you would come up with some bullshit about the left dehumanizing conservatives.
I think 99% of the left is averse to violence and is especially averse to dehumanizing anyone at all. Don't be mad at them. Be mad at me. I am the one not in that 99%. Most folks on the left will argue with me endlessly to try to convince me to see conservatives as humans. You are picking your fight with the wrong people. Pick your fight with me instead.
Every accusation is a confession.
It's literally what the comment I replied to was doing. You're just telling me that Democrats are as bad as Republicans - but since it's your team that's okay.
Somehow, you've taken away the opposite of what I said. But, that is to be expected from a conservative. Conservatives are incapable of entering into a conversation in good faith. Honesty is simply not a conservative trait.
At no point have I framed all Republicans as Nazis. But to deny that Nazis have embraced the Republican party and the party has no problem with them in leadership roles is to deny reality.
It's pretty heavily implied in your context. If it was not your intent then I withdraw part of my statement. You're still using a very politically-charged word to dehumanize some of your opponents.
You can assume all you want. That remains your problem, not mine. My statement stands.
Maybe @spaceghoti didn't, but I will. If you're still carrying water for the party that, by all appearences, will nominate Donald Trump as their presidential candidate again, you are a fucking fascist.
At least three people have made essentially this point and he’s replied to none of them. He’s only interested in arguments he thinks he can knock down.
A table with 9 republicans and 1 nazi allowed sitting at it is just a table with 10 nazis.
https://sh.itjust.works/comment/4561037
The GOP has a serious Nazi problem, and the roots go deep. Many Republicans are happy to call themselves Nazis, Neo-Nazis, white supremacists, etc. Acknowledging this doesn’t dehumanize anyone— it’s just a fact.
If 9 people sit down at a table with 1 Nazi without protest, there are 10 Nazis at the table.
They should probably stop supporting nazis then.