Even completely ignoring all the history of the region and how the current State of Israel came to be and only focusing on the present in a vacuum, there is still is a glaring contradiction that I have never heard any sort of coherent answer from people who support Israel’s actions: If you truly believe that simply having an opinion against the Israel’s actions is antisemitic (or simply being a Palestinian that’s still alive is antisemitic according to too many people), then surely it also holds that both Israel’s outright killing Palestinians and their ongoing apartheid policies preventing Palestinians from existing in the same areas as Jews is anti-Arab right? Is being anti-Arabic somehow preferable to being antisemitic? Are Arabs not human beings and do they not deserve the same rights and protection as Jews or literally any other human? What makes it okay for Israel to be anti-Arab then?
Okay, so I have a few points: If some people say that disagreeing with Israel is anti-semitic, they are just wrong. I myself know a lot of Jews who disagree with the current Netanyahu’s government’s actions (so do I) and they are definitely not anti-semitic. It’s definitely valid to point out Israel’s mistakes in this conflict (e.g. occupation of the west bank, radical opinions of some politicians such as throwing a nuclear bomb onto gaza, etc.). No one can call you anti-semitic for that. However, if you support Hamas in their mission and call for the removal of the state of Israel, it can be considered anti-semitic because you practically ask for killing millions of Jews.
You have also mentioned that Israel is anti-Arab which is not true. Currently fifth of the population is Arab and they have exactly the same rights as Jews. Also I don’t understand how Israel is apartheid. The people who are supposed to be oppressed are literally under a different authority. That’s like saying France is apartheid because Germans do not have the same rights in France as French people have
They censoring the word Israel now? Wild.
Why? And why is it half assed?
All you need to do to avoid content filters is make it not machine readable.
Only those posts they suspect will be taken down automatically
Where? Here? Wait, does lemmy have auto content removal?
Chances are this was not created for lemmy
E. Fair enough. Didn’t really consider that. Haven’t used other social media for a while now.
Circlejerk rather than shitpost.
It is interesting how split opinions are here. Young democrats are more pro Palestine, older Dems are more pro Israel (although a little harsh). Republicans think Israel is doing the right thing.
You really need to understand that there is a waaay bigger political spectrum than “Democrats” and “Republicans”. Especially when it comes to foreign policy.
Random condescension on Lemmy, what else is new.
I was basing my statement on an NPR poll and those were the categories that they used.
You are dn the internet and not everyone here is from the US.
The US political system is not the center of the political world.
In fact, I think that the Democrat Republican dichotomy is one reason why people in the west are so badly informed when it comes to politics.
Take off your offended pants and reread what they wrote. If that’s condescension then you’re too sensitive for the internet and should probably log off.
I am being condescending. They were not.
Lemmy seems obsessed with needless disputes and pedantic “gotcha” moments. (Your comment exemplifies my point beautifully, by the way.) It is condensing to read my comment in the uncharitable light of arguing the US political spectrum applies abroad. But instead of trying to discern what the other person means, a lot of you would rather find a disagreement where there is none.
You’re both being condescending and can happily fuck off.
Ah so you DO need to log off.
In all seriousness my comment was meant to come off as condescending to highlight the difference. If you want to be mad at the world go right ahead. You’re the one with the shitty outlook, ya fucking baby. 👶🏻
And there it is. You’re just trolling, you have nothing of value to say. Try to be a little less blatant next time.
Hey would you fuck off already?
Not American, but there is a shift lately that makes me feel a little hopeful. Like for the first time my parents and in-laws are starting to see how not all criticism of Israel has to be antisemitic.
Yes that does mean we’re having to be more vigilant for actual antisemitism (especially online), but it’s still progress of a sort.
Issue is many young people don’t realize it’s mostly Hamas ruining people’s lives and many older ones cannot admit mistakes made by Israel.
Or people are just completely on one side (which is imho impossible). Either they support Israel or they support Palestine and want Israel out. You know how few balanced opinions I have seen?
Exactly, and the few being balanced part is what drives us crazy. My wife is Jewish and has family in Israel. While we hate Hamas we dislike the orthodox Jews almost as much. Even with everything going on we care for the Palestinians that are mixed up with this and acknowledge both sides are truly bad in this. The enemy is Hamas not Palestine. Israel the nation isn’t the problem, it’s Netanyahu and company. None of that matters however as she has been spit on and treated like shit ever since this started just for her ethnicity.
There is so much information warfare going on and I am sure of it. As soon as that first hospital blew up, media immediately blamed the IDF before any evidence was out. Then all evidence pointed to Hamas being responsible and it barely got covered. Hamas is using hospitals as hiding spots at the very least. Meanwhile they do their best to heard and trap civilians into the crossfire while the IDF steamrolls. The whole situation is just fucked.
It is just so aggravating how everyone treats this as a black and white struggle like Ukraine when it is anything but. It’s two shitheads fighting; with Israel at least having dissenters while Palestine is run like a dictatorship. That’s the only simple part.
Israel is right leaning
Leaning?
Not leaning; they’ve fallen over
The hubris and the gall of those crazy leftists, they don’t want dead babies what monsters!
A hard look, you say?
Yeah, you anti-genocidal fucks.
How dare you support not killing people en masse? Monsters
damn i look good
Sure do king…I’ll leave your bathroom now.
“I used the chad meme so I’m correct”
I look fantastic, at peace with myself, and pacifist, as I work for a world without conflict.
You know, when neo-nazis align themselves with anti israel leftists, I would say that’s not good, but apparently western “communists” kniw better then anyone, “the enemy of my enemy is my friend”, enjoy being on the same side with neo nazis, must feel great isnt it?
So? Israel is on the same side as white supremacists and far right Christian extremists. Your logical faculties are garbage.
Besides literally no one on the left is looking at Neo Nazis and saying “the enemy of the enemy is my friend”. You’re just making shit up because that’s easier than trying to defend what the IDF is actually doing right now. It’s always games and misdirection with the pro-Israel crowd.
And communists in america align themselves with sunni salafi jihadists, your point is?
You wrote a bunch of BS and buzzwords just tick off your “I mascaraded my jew hatered behind israel criticism”
Sharmoota
To the leftist who is stunned by this message:
Think of Jordan Peterson. There was a time where he was riled up against “ideologies who would kill people in the name of a higher good.” And he named examples, Stalin and Mao most prominently. For all the abstract criticisms of ideologies, he rarely distances himself from Fascism, named Hitler only very occasionally as an example.
Now he is forethinker for the Republican Fascist party which is now normalizing the exact dehumanizing language that the Nazis used to prepared and justify their concentration camps.
Antifascists caught his thought patterns early on and warned of him using fascist arguments much more sensitive than most people, the missing distancing from Hitler along his other prominent examples being one of them.
Now, dear leftists, the mirror of this arguments wants to ask you if you are really only motivated by reducing human suffering and wanting peace. And if so, you cannot ignore the role of Hamas in this longtime ongoing conflict nor in this war. If you skip that, if that’s not in your mirror, it’s big time necessary to go outside your bubble. Because then chances are you are a puppet playing the propaganda trumpet for the Hamas, or otherwise playing in their hands.
And if so, you cannot ignore the role of Hamas in this longtime ongoing conflict nor in this war.
Israel created Hamas, because they wanted to destabilize the PLO and Fatah. They continue to recruit more people for Hamas by killing fathers, wives, and children indiscriminately. Israel’s only path forward is genocide–either literal, or through the absolute destruction of Palestinian identity–much like we did in the US to the Native Americans.
That is at best a totally skewed version. Yea we know Netanyahu for a few years let the Hamas grow, and we have records of him with vaguely the reasoning you have there.
But to make Israel entirely responsible for the existence, what the Hamas does and wants, demands a world view of an all powerful Jewish government that plans and executes for immense time frames that span generations. Don’t we have that though pattern in widely spread antisemitic conspiracy theories?
But to make Israel entirely responsible for the existence for the Hamas
Well, they largely are though, because they created the conditions that allows Hamas to flourish. Israel is the country that has been waging war against the Palestinians. Israel has continually fought against making real progress on a two-state solution, and Israel is the one using it’s army to let Israeli colonizers take over more and more Palestinian land in the West Bank. Israel is thr country that is illegally occupying the West Bank. Israel is an apartheid country.
Hardliners–like Netanyahu–oppose any peace process with the Palestinians, and oppose allowing them to have the land back that is rightfully and legally theirs. Hardline Israelis are every bit as deranged as evangelical Christians, and for largely the same reasons.
This isn’t about anti-semitism, unless you want to insist that Israel is a Jewish ethno-state, and that any opposition to Israeli policy, politics, and military action is actually antisemitism.
Your comment reads like you’re addressing mostly the history since 2005 or so. I definitely see that Israel after the 2nd intifada has had a very different strategy than before, including these things that you outline.
Just don’t ignore that there was a history before. There was an offer for a 2-state solution on the table where the world agreed it won’t get any better. Arafat just walked away and started the 2nd intifada instead. Hamas is still much older than that. Irans support of the Hamas is newer, though.
It’s so lame to blame it all on Israel. My take on this still is that for the security of Israel, it doesn’t matter much what Israel does. Their tries for peace negotiations were largely ignored, and their hard crackdowns do shit for their security. The signal to deescalate the conflict must come from Iran, which will impact how Hamas and Hisbollah work.
Every sane person just reading the news of what is happening in Gaza and the West Bank can make their own conclusions. If you really value human life no matter the religion, ethnicity or skin colour you can see a clear pattern.
Really? What we have in the news these days is published by the conflict parties, independent verification is almost never possible.
I don’t need the exact numbers to know how bad the situation is. I have a couple of questions for you:
- Do you agree that the civilian casualties on the Palestinian side far exceed those on the Israeli part?
- Do you agree that a large chunk of the population in Gaza is displaced and currently living in makeshift tents?
- Do you agree that there is an ongoing humanitarian catastrophe in Gaza?
- Do you agree that there is increased violence and imposed restrictions in the West bank by the IDF, and that far right settlers are persecuting Palestinians and killing them.
- Weren’t there members of the Israeli parliament calling for nuking Gaza, to do the same in the West Bank, etc?
- What about illegal settlements, land grab, numerous human rights violations, etc.
I also want Hamas gone, but don’t think this is the way.
Yes, there is all that. As I said, I think Netanyahu and his bunch belong in jail, not in power.
But even if this guy is out of the way, here’s a few more questions to consider:
- Do you agree that after Oct 7th, Israels strategy of building a wall and an “iron dome” must be considered totally failed?
- Do you agree that the Hamas can not be talked with?
- Do you agree that in addition to the Hamas, Israel is surrounded by militant groups that want to erase the state from the map?
- Do you agree that in the past no palestinean negotiator honestly considered a 2-state-solution?
What are, positively speaking, Israels options? What should a moderate follower of Netanyahu do to achieve some sort of piece? I’m lost here. Do you have any ideas other than saying “not this way”?
