That episode always kinda bothered me, because the universal translator was able to make English phrases out of it, which suggests a base language that would have to exist for the Tamarians themselves to understand their language. Surely, they could have shared some set of learning matirials that they would use to educate their young?
They may have tried that in the past to no avail. The episode specifically mentions there was several failed attempts at first contact.
A guide only works if you understand the guide. Think of it like this, if I sent you all 1679 ones and zeros from the arecibo message to you, but you didn’t understand the concept of zero, you’d have a hard time understanding what the message meant, even if the message itself was self explanatory.
Their language isn’t just grammatically different, it is uses a fundamentally different structure, and the Tamarian brain might be structurally different as well, able to easily account for language when young. So there may not be much of a “base language” that the metaphors are built on so to speak.
Take a look at the Pioneer spacecrafts’ plaques. NASA scientists have broken down our abstract expression of distance to language-agnostic universal constants. I refuse to believe that a space-faring civilization with friendly intentions wouldn’t do everything in its power to find a common language, no matter how far removed from their spoken language.
They’ve also run things like the pioneer plaques (or maybe it was arecibo) past other scientists, who often have difficulty discerning the meaning behind them. If human scientists have difficulty discerning the meaning, I can only imagine what kind of difficulty aliens who speak in metaphor would have, let alone if they weren’t linguists/scientists, which appear to be the case in the episode.
We evolved to hunt, and so it is suspected that as a result of that, we understand arrows to indicate direction. A species that hasn’t evolved in such a way might not understand the meaning of arrows. Apply that same principle to language and you potentially have your problem.
How would the Tamarians ever develop any advanced technology? Can you imagine an engineering discussion in Tamarian? Like, what is the word for capacitor? “Edward, when he enclosed conductive foil and electrolyte in a metal cylinder”? What would a Tamarian technical manual even look like?
I mean, they seem to have basic grammar for items and people and actions (“eyes”, “walls”, “fell”), it’s possible that they only use that weird allegory reference pattern when speaking formally to strangers or whatever. It’s also possible that their language in the original version makes more sense and is more practical and it just gets mangled by the universal translator.
it’s possible that they only use that weird allegory reference pattern when speaking formally to strangers or whatever
It seems like an awfully bad idea to use a communication method that doesn’t transfer what you mean if you have a better option available.
It’s also possible that their language in the original version makes more sense and is more practical and it just gets mangled by the universal translator.
I doubt that’s the case. I don’t see how a non-metaphor based language would get turned into a metaphor based one through a software bug. Some big hand waving would need to happen for that.
IMO the Tamarians probably have brains that are structurally different such that their metaphors come far more naturally.
The translator is able to translate the words themselves, but not the context needed to actually understand the translated phrases.
I find it no different than the translation weirdness in the Voyager episode “Nemesis” where the people are understandable, but all the words they choose are just slightly off of what’s normally spoken in English. Like… Nemesis instead of enemy. Glimpses instead of eyes. Trunks instead of woods. Why would the translator use those words instead of more common words that mean the same thing?
“Our communication happens through references to well-documented historical events and figures, but still uses the same vocabulary and grammar as the federation and most of the galaxy’s civilizations. Maybe we should share a short summary with the captain, to assist in establishing relations.”
“No! I wanna wrassle the monster like Darmok and Jalad!”
They should have sent the federation their history books. The only thing missing from the language is context. The fact that they speak in metaphors means that these stories exist somewhere for them to be referenced.
The thing is… do they? We don’t know that they’re actually referencing anything at all. I always thought that, once you got the vibe, you could contribute to the conversation with the phrasing and use the implied story of the phrase for the context.
I might say to you, “Kyle, when Janet left him.” You don’t need to know who Kyle or Janet are to infer that this might not be a good thing. Alternatively, I might say that, and mime like I’m wiping sweat from my brow as of relieved, and it might change the meaning.
We have no real way of knowing what history they might be referring to. Or if there even is one.
frankly i feel that most social species should be able to create a pidgin even if they have basically nothing else in common.
like… if we can communicate basic things with bears and deer, i think the idea that we somehow wouldn’t be able to communicate at all with aliens is a bit wack
That episode always kinda bothered me, because the universal translator was able to make English phrases out of it, which suggests a base language that would have to exist for the Tamarians themselves to understand their language. Surely, they could have shared some set of learning matirials that they would use to educate their young?
They may have tried that in the past to no avail. The episode specifically mentions there was several failed attempts at first contact.
A guide only works if you understand the guide. Think of it like this, if I sent you all 1679 ones and zeros from the arecibo message to you, but you didn’t understand the concept of zero, you’d have a hard time understanding what the message meant, even if the message itself was self explanatory.
Their language isn’t just grammatically different, it is uses a fundamentally different structure, and the Tamarian brain might be structurally different as well, able to easily account for language when young. So there may not be much of a “base language” that the metaphors are built on so to speak.
Take a look at the Pioneer spacecrafts’ plaques. NASA scientists have broken down our abstract expression of distance to language-agnostic universal constants. I refuse to believe that a space-faring civilization with friendly intentions wouldn’t do everything in its power to find a common language, no matter how far removed from their spoken language.
They’ve also run things like the pioneer plaques (or maybe it was arecibo) past other scientists, who often have difficulty discerning the meaning behind them. If human scientists have difficulty discerning the meaning, I can only imagine what kind of difficulty aliens who speak in metaphor would have, let alone if they weren’t linguists/scientists, which appear to be the case in the episode.
We evolved to hunt, and so it is suspected that as a result of that, we understand arrows to indicate direction. A species that hasn’t evolved in such a way might not understand the meaning of arrows. Apply that same principle to language and you potentially have your problem.
How would the Tamarians ever develop any advanced technology? Can you imagine an engineering discussion in Tamarian? Like, what is the word for capacitor? “Edward, when he enclosed conductive foil and electrolyte in a metal cylinder”? What would a Tamarian technical manual even look like?
I mean, they seem to have basic grammar for items and people and actions (“eyes”, “walls”, “fell”), it’s possible that they only use that weird allegory reference pattern when speaking formally to strangers or whatever. It’s also possible that their language in the original version makes more sense and is more practical and it just gets mangled by the universal translator.
It seems like an awfully bad idea to use a communication method that doesn’t transfer what you mean if you have a better option available.
I doubt that’s the case. I don’t see how a non-metaphor based language would get turned into a metaphor based one through a software bug. Some big hand waving would need to happen for that.
IMO the Tamarians probably have brains that are structurally different such that their metaphors come far more naturally.
Edward, he held the flood back. Edward, when flood released.
The translator is able to translate the words themselves, but not the context needed to actually understand the translated phrases.
I find it no different than the translation weirdness in the Voyager episode “Nemesis” where the people are understandable, but all the words they choose are just slightly off of what’s normally spoken in English. Like… Nemesis instead of enemy. Glimpses instead of eyes. Trunks instead of woods. Why would the translator use those words instead of more common words that mean the same thing?
“Our communication happens through references to well-documented historical events and figures, but still uses the same vocabulary and grammar as the federation and most of the galaxy’s civilizations. Maybe we should share a short summary with the captain, to assist in establishing relations.”
“No! I wanna wrassle the monster like Darmok and Jalad!”
They should have sent the federation their history books. The only thing missing from the language is context. The fact that they speak in metaphors means that these stories exist somewhere for them to be referenced.
The thing is… do they? We don’t know that they’re actually referencing anything at all. I always thought that, once you got the vibe, you could contribute to the conversation with the phrasing and use the implied story of the phrase for the context.
I might say to you, “Kyle, when Janet left him.” You don’t need to know who Kyle or Janet are to infer that this might not be a good thing. Alternatively, I might say that, and mime like I’m wiping sweat from my brow as of relieved, and it might change the meaning.
We have no real way of knowing what history they might be referring to. Or if there even is one.
That’s assuming that they could understand Federation text books, and that their metaphor based thinking wouldn’t make it nigh impossible for them.
Their captain sacrificed his life so that we could communicate with them, and we never saw them again for the entirety of the show.
There was this other time they discovered a whole fucking Dyson Sphere, and then promptly forgot about it.
Didn’t it seal itself up or something? I vaguely remember them being trapped in there and having to pull some shenanigans to escape.
A big door shut, but they also knew how to open it again.
frankly i feel that most social species should be able to create a pidgin even if they have basically nothing else in common.
like… if we can communicate basic things with bears and deer, i think the idea that we somehow wouldn’t be able to communicate at all with aliens is a bit wack