Expanding Medicare to cover everyone would raise taxes for everyone, but it would save everybody money and actually give people more disposable income.
Maybe… maybe not. I was told Obamacare would be great too, but my out of pocket costs went up dramatically, while everything about it became more complex and annoying. I used to have an HMO. I paid a extra each check, but showing up to a doctor just meant a co-pay. I went to the ER, paid $250, and didn’t have to worry about anything after that (it would have been a $30k bill). Now I’m forced into a high deductible plan where basically everything is out of pocket for the first $3k, then there is some weird split, then there is a max out of pocket at some point. It sucks. I like the idea of Medicare for all, as I want things to be simple. When I’m sick the last thing I want to think about is money… but with how bad they fucked things up for me last time I have 0 faith that they won’t fuck up a single payer program as well.
If every last dime was taken from the very wealthy, then it wouldn’t just be withdrawing money from a bank account, it would involve distributing more stock in companies to the workers. This is the role that unions and non government collectives could play. Ideally, it would involve restructuring companies so they worked more democratically and CEOs and executives would be elected by workers rather than chosen by people with capital who have no stake in the company besides profit. This would need to happen in tandem with everything else, and it would be a gradual transition away from capital investments to worker owned companies. Taking from the wealthy isn’t a long term strategy, but a technique used to transition away from capital ruling over everything.
This is vastly different than what I usually hear when people talk about the rich paying for everything. If this is what people mean, then everyone else I’ve ever talked to is either grossly misinformed or really bad at explaining things. Either way, that’s not good. I have a lot of questions though.
So… let’s say I get hired at an Amazon warehouse. As part of each check I’d get some amount of stock? Then when I leave and go over to work for Uber, I’d start getting some of their stock with each paycheck?
It looks like Amazon actually used to do this, but ended it to fund the minimum wage increase everyone was demanding.
But it mentions they still have a stock purchase plan, which many companies do. I guess the idea being that if you still want the stock, you can use some of the increase in pay to buy the stock. This concept of taking some of your pay to buy stock can be done regardless of what the company offers, but that goes back to the financial literacy conversation which we don’t need to rehash.
At the end of the day, what you’re describing sounds like some kind of hybrid between a pension, stock purchase plan, and 401k (which usually offers some kind of employer match). I don’t see it being radically different. The only difference is taking all the stock from other current owners, which seems like choice, not something that must be done to have these other things in place… as evidenced by these other things already being in place in our current system.
I don’t think this would help with the equality thing, as some companies will do better than others. Someone who spent 10 years at Apple would be living high on the hog, while someone who worked at Blackberry would be broke. Financial advisors will warn people about overvaluing the stock of the company you work for, and this is why. If you’re giving stock as part of your compensation, the general rule is to treat it like any other income, sell it, and re-invest it into a more diversified portfolio based on your goals. That sounds like a lot more work than what a pension or a 401k with a target date fund would, while ultimately serving the same role. If people can sell this stock, or borrow against it, they will, and they’ll be in the same spot they are today. You’ll have the savers and the spenders, where the savers end up accumulating money to have a comfortable retirement, and the spenders live a more exciting life, with a more depressing end. That’s a personality thing; do you live for today, or delay gratification in hopes of a better tomorrow? Ultimately a balance is good, but it’s never one someone can get perfect as we never know what the future holds.
I actually like like the idea of a pension, but they’ve fallen out of favor. I have one, but my company stopped contributing to it, which sucks. I think a big reason for pensions not being much of a thing anymore is all the jump hoping. No one wants to deal with tiny pensions from 20 different companies. They were really designed for someone who was going to work at once place for 40 years. I think it served a similar function as to what you’re talking about. It’s a company investing for your retirement on your behalf. The 401k match does this as well, but the employee has to opt-in and has the option to screw themselves by taking money out early with huge penalties. A universal pension which can follow you from company to company would be nice to avoid splitting it up. I guess one could argue that’s what social security is, but social security isn’t your own account, it’s a big pool of cash.
This is vastly different than what I usually hear when people talk about the rich paying for everything. If this is what people mean, then everyone else I’ve ever talked to is either grossly misinformed or really bad at explaining things. Either way, that’s not good. I have a lot of questions though.
Unfortunately most people, even people who are self proclaimed socialists, don’t think through what seizing the means of production means. It means that the capital that is owned by a class of people who do little labor for it, is given back to the people who labor. Another reason people don’t describe the system is that many different versions and strategies exist to accomplish this goal. I’m not an economist by any means, so I’m not wed to that plan.
It’s ultimately about accomplishing the goal of economic equity where anything beyond the necessities is earned through labor, not ownership. The current system where you gain wealth primarily from owning capital leads to people getting impractical sums of wealth. Scarcity means that those impractical sums are allocated in a way that lets people suffer and die needlessly.
Additionally, many people who are merely social democrats don’t want capitalism to go away so long as people aren’t left behind. I’m not determined to destroy capitalism at all costs, making me a bit of a social democrat. However, I don’t care if capitalism is destroyed so long as the goal is accomplished.
It’s easier to unite people behind the mentality of making the economy more fair than to nail down a solid plan that everyone agrees to. Most people will never need to understand how the intricacies of the system work beyond how they interact with it. So why make sure everyone fully comprehends anything beyond the input and the output? I don’t know exactly how my computer works, but I can use it. So long as the information is available to everyone and the basics are common enough knowledge, we can have people informed enough to vote and fight for it.
I’m getting tired, and this will probably be my last response, but I will say that the current Amazon stock purchase plan is missing the point. Almost all the capital is owned by shareholders who don’t work at the company, so owning the stock gives workers little say over company decisions or ability to realize the full profits. The point is to give all that stock back to the workers or a democratic government. There’s still room for executives who make decisions, but they are only representatives. The role of CEO would probably be similar in name and public relations only. It would be like calling Biden the king of the US. The system being owned by workers isn’t a choice, but the main feature of such a system.
Part of the reason the ACA has problems is because it needed Republican and moderate Democrat support, leading to compromises that hindered it. The fact that the senate is an elected position necessitates the removal of the filibuster to get things done.
Maybe… maybe not. I was told Obamacare would be great too, but my out of pocket costs went up dramatically, while everything about it became more complex and annoying. I used to have an HMO. I paid a extra each check, but showing up to a doctor just meant a co-pay. I went to the ER, paid $250, and didn’t have to worry about anything after that (it would have been a $30k bill). Now I’m forced into a high deductible plan where basically everything is out of pocket for the first $3k, then there is some weird split, then there is a max out of pocket at some point. It sucks. I like the idea of Medicare for all, as I want things to be simple. When I’m sick the last thing I want to think about is money… but with how bad they fucked things up for me last time I have 0 faith that they won’t fuck up a single payer program as well.
This is vastly different than what I usually hear when people talk about the rich paying for everything. If this is what people mean, then everyone else I’ve ever talked to is either grossly misinformed or really bad at explaining things. Either way, that’s not good. I have a lot of questions though.
So… let’s say I get hired at an Amazon warehouse. As part of each check I’d get some amount of stock? Then when I leave and go over to work for Uber, I’d start getting some of their stock with each paycheck?
It looks like Amazon actually used to do this, but ended it to fund the minimum wage increase everyone was demanding.
https://www.theverge.com/2018/10/3/17934194/amazon-minimum-wage-raise-stock-options-bonus-warehouse
But it mentions they still have a stock purchase plan, which many companies do. I guess the idea being that if you still want the stock, you can use some of the increase in pay to buy the stock. This concept of taking some of your pay to buy stock can be done regardless of what the company offers, but that goes back to the financial literacy conversation which we don’t need to rehash.
At the end of the day, what you’re describing sounds like some kind of hybrid between a pension, stock purchase plan, and 401k (which usually offers some kind of employer match). I don’t see it being radically different. The only difference is taking all the stock from other current owners, which seems like choice, not something that must be done to have these other things in place… as evidenced by these other things already being in place in our current system.
I don’t think this would help with the equality thing, as some companies will do better than others. Someone who spent 10 years at Apple would be living high on the hog, while someone who worked at Blackberry would be broke. Financial advisors will warn people about overvaluing the stock of the company you work for, and this is why. If you’re giving stock as part of your compensation, the general rule is to treat it like any other income, sell it, and re-invest it into a more diversified portfolio based on your goals. That sounds like a lot more work than what a pension or a 401k with a target date fund would, while ultimately serving the same role. If people can sell this stock, or borrow against it, they will, and they’ll be in the same spot they are today. You’ll have the savers and the spenders, where the savers end up accumulating money to have a comfortable retirement, and the spenders live a more exciting life, with a more depressing end. That’s a personality thing; do you live for today, or delay gratification in hopes of a better tomorrow? Ultimately a balance is good, but it’s never one someone can get perfect as we never know what the future holds.
I actually like like the idea of a pension, but they’ve fallen out of favor. I have one, but my company stopped contributing to it, which sucks. I think a big reason for pensions not being much of a thing anymore is all the jump hoping. No one wants to deal with tiny pensions from 20 different companies. They were really designed for someone who was going to work at once place for 40 years. I think it served a similar function as to what you’re talking about. It’s a company investing for your retirement on your behalf. The 401k match does this as well, but the employee has to opt-in and has the option to screw themselves by taking money out early with huge penalties. A universal pension which can follow you from company to company would be nice to avoid splitting it up. I guess one could argue that’s what social security is, but social security isn’t your own account, it’s a big pool of cash.
Unfortunately most people, even people who are self proclaimed socialists, don’t think through what seizing the means of production means. It means that the capital that is owned by a class of people who do little labor for it, is given back to the people who labor. Another reason people don’t describe the system is that many different versions and strategies exist to accomplish this goal. I’m not an economist by any means, so I’m not wed to that plan.
It’s ultimately about accomplishing the goal of economic equity where anything beyond the necessities is earned through labor, not ownership. The current system where you gain wealth primarily from owning capital leads to people getting impractical sums of wealth. Scarcity means that those impractical sums are allocated in a way that lets people suffer and die needlessly.
Additionally, many people who are merely social democrats don’t want capitalism to go away so long as people aren’t left behind. I’m not determined to destroy capitalism at all costs, making me a bit of a social democrat. However, I don’t care if capitalism is destroyed so long as the goal is accomplished.
It’s easier to unite people behind the mentality of making the economy more fair than to nail down a solid plan that everyone agrees to. Most people will never need to understand how the intricacies of the system work beyond how they interact with it. So why make sure everyone fully comprehends anything beyond the input and the output? I don’t know exactly how my computer works, but I can use it. So long as the information is available to everyone and the basics are common enough knowledge, we can have people informed enough to vote and fight for it.
I’m getting tired, and this will probably be my last response, but I will say that the current Amazon stock purchase plan is missing the point. Almost all the capital is owned by shareholders who don’t work at the company, so owning the stock gives workers little say over company decisions or ability to realize the full profits. The point is to give all that stock back to the workers or a democratic government. There’s still room for executives who make decisions, but they are only representatives. The role of CEO would probably be similar in name and public relations only. It would be like calling Biden the king of the US. The system being owned by workers isn’t a choice, but the main feature of such a system.
Part of the reason the ACA has problems is because it needed Republican and moderate Democrat support, leading to compromises that hindered it. The fact that the senate is an elected position necessitates the removal of the filibuster to get things done.