rage-cry I whined about cracker being a slur and those mean ol Hexbears just called me a cracker more instead of debating merage-cry

ppb-gigachad

  • roux [he/him, they/them]@hexbear.net
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    10 months ago

    Arguing that cracker is a slur is very “all lives matter” energy.

    Also who here thinks that USSR or China are fascist pretending to be communist? Like what the fuck even is that?

    • 420blazeit69 [he/him]@hexbear.net
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      10 months ago

      It doesn’t have the connotation of a slur, but it’s undeniably “a derogatory race-based term.” I don’t see how an in-person organization in the U.S. could be successful while allowing that, so it’s always struck me as extremely online that we do.

      This is a case of “page of reactionary screed that includes one decent point made poorly,” and us being reflexively contrarian, which is 90% right when dealing with reactionaries but still leaves some considerable blind spots.

        • 420blazeit69 [he/him]@hexbear.net
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          10 months ago

          There are plenty of people who are interested in socialism, but if they show up to a socialist org and get called a cracker they’ll leave. It’s an insult.

          We’re talking about politics and organizing people, right? To succeed at those you have to get people to like you, or at least not insult them, no matter how right you are. “Anyone who takes issue when I insult them is unreachable” is extremely online.

          • Awoo [she/her]@hexbear.net
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            10 months ago

            There are plenty of people who are interested in socialism, but if they show up to a socialist org and get called a cracker they’ll leave. It’s an insult.

            This also applies to pigpoopballs and you can pry my ppb from my cold dead hands.

            • IzyaKatzmann [he/him]@hexbear.net
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              10 months ago

              I suppose the question might be more: when wouldn’t you use PPB? If you’re familiar with Huey P. Newton, in an interview he gave the same year he was assassinated (RIP; Rest In Power) he spoke against what he referred to (and what I am suggesting is quite similar) as the dirty word movement. Is it really so difficult to accept one of the consequences of using some language, whatever it is, can be deleterious or on the whole considered by comrades to be less than helpful in specific circumstances?

              With language, and what appear to be brainworms with most folk (the reasons why are justified, I’d never argue against or attempt to invalidate that; if I have I apologize, please let me know and I’ll offer a proper apology and ideally would like to listen & learn to prevent it) including comrades, stating a reasonable unwanted consequence is tantamount to “silencing expression”. Which it is of course, and if dialectics were employed, it is also harmful in ways which are considered by other comrades. What’s the major issue with what seems like invalidation of comrades’ concerns when it pertains to the material affects of specific kinds of communication?

              I have some ideas, they don’t seem particularly respectful and are accusatory, which is why I’d rather hear what others have to say. I want to stay in that uncomfortable space of cognitive dissonance before reaching a dialect on the subject of interest.

              • Awoo [she/her]@hexbear.net
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                10 months ago

                I suppose the question might be more: when wouldn’t you use PPB? If you’re familiar with Huey P. Newton, in an interview he gave the same year he was assassinated (RIP; Rest In Power) he spoke against what he referred to (and what I am suggesting is quite similar) as the dirty word movement. Is it really so difficult to accept one of the consequences of using some language, whatever it is, can be deleterious or on the whole considered by comrades to be less than helpful in specific circumstances?

                I have a carrot and stick philosophy to brainworms, if I see a person as genuinely potentially possible to talk to and turn then I engage with them in as friendly a way as I can possibly muster - earnestly demonstrating that I’m educated and worth listening to and a potential source of learning.

                If however they are clearly not going to allow that to happen I use the stick.

                My interaction with this person is not the last ever interaction this person will have with a communist. They will have others in future, and I prefer to give them the stick to deter behaviour they demonstrated in this conversation so that there is a greater chance of them engaging in a better way for a future comrade. I don’t view interactions in a vacuum, I view things hollistically. The general intent being that having an incredibly negative experience as a result of the way they engaged me results in them engaging with someone else in a different way.

                • IzyaKatzmann [he/him]@hexbear.net
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                  10 months ago

                  also; i do think the carrot and stick is a good heuristic, it really makes a clear distinction i think to like, how to frame one’s responses & engagements

                • IzyaKatzmann [he/him]@hexbear.net
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                  10 months ago

                  ah that’s fair and it makes sense. you’d say something like my confusion would be a consequence of not knowing or being familiar with your engagement philosophy and history, right? it feels like it would be difficult for others maybe to know that as well which may also explain some reticence on others’ part.

                  i also don’t see things in rather short slices, and don’t think my internal presumptions–i.e. inherently containing a tendency towards non-scientific positivist thinking; it lacks peer-review or the broader phenomena of explicit social critique of which all have the reference materials available which in this case are categorically excluded from such folks, for good reason of course and, holistically, it would be amiss i think to ignore its lack of presence.

                  i think i honestly got super excited and really did not read the room well vis-à-vis the original poster. after rereading your prior comment and other comrades i think i severely misunderstood and misconstrued what the OP was saying… it honestly kinda reminds me of dronerights a bit and my interactions at that time.

                • BurgerPunk [he/him, comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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                  10 months ago

                  I prefer to give them the stick to deter behaviour they demonstrated in this conversation so that there is a greater chance of them engaging in a better way for a future comrade.

                  That’s a great strategy, and way to think about interacting with people.

                  The idea that we have to only use the carrot in all situations because that is the sole interaction that will determine whether the other person becomes a comrade or a fascist, is, besides being silly, a lot of pressure to place on an individual.

          • GarbageShoot [he/him]@hexbear.net
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            10 months ago

            There are plenty of people who are interested in socialism, but if they show up to a socialist org and get called a cracker they’ll leave. It’s an insult.

            We aren’t a fucking org. No one is joining an org to come in and start swinging minute 1 about how akshually Stalin was Hitler unless they are joining an org that holds that stance to begin with. If someone does join an ML org and do that, they get what they fucking deserve.

            But we are not an org, and them coming into some thread to take shots does not represent remotely the same opportunity to us that a new member does to an organizer.

            • 420blazeit69 [he/him]@hexbear.net
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              10 months ago

              I didn’t say we’re an org, and I didn’t say this asshole shouldn’t have been banned.

              I said allowing race-based insults, even those directed at white people, is extremely online behavior. You can see this because it’s not tolerated in person.

              • GarbageShoot [he/him]@hexbear.net
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                10 months ago

                It’s not tolerated in person with an org member. If you’re at a counterprotest or whatever and a PoC comrade calls a fascist on the other side of the line a cracker, there typically won’t be a disciplinary hearing over it. Your comment is useless equivocating because it completely obscures the variety of different group dynamics that appear in person. It’s not as though “cracker” was first said to a white person over AOL in the 90s.

                • 420blazeit69 [he/him]@hexbear.net
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                  10 months ago

                  Cracker is used on here all the time; it’s not exclusively directed at reactionaries. And of course one of the big problems with race-based insults (or insults based on any other group characteristic) is that even if the intent is only to insult someone deserving of insult, comrades who are also in the group hear it, too.

              • BurgerPunk [he/him, comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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                10 months ago

                There are plenty of people who are interested in socialism, but if they show up to a socialist org and get called a cracker they’ll leave

                I don’t think that’s a real scenario that’s worth worrying about. Where are these socialist orgs that these people are going to show up at and be called crackers right away? Its silly. That’s why I’m making light of it, because this is just an unserious concern

                • Great_Leader_Is_Dead@hexbear.net
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                  10 months ago

                  Where are these socialist orgs that these people are going to show up at and be called crackers right away?

                  There are some pretty weird Maoist groups out there…

                • 420blazeit69 [he/him]@hexbear.net
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                  10 months ago

                  It doesn’t happen in real life because in person everyone understands that you don’t insult people you’re trying to work with.

                  “I can’t imagine people saying this face-to-face” is a sign that we should ask why we’re saying it at all.

                • IzyaKatzmann [he/him]@hexbear.net
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                  10 months ago

                  I’m not sure the trolley problem nor Russel’s Teapot are legitimate either; I think the value is in the very clear and specificity of the thought experiment.

                  (unless thought experiments are bourgeois decadence, if so I will show myself out…)

        • IzyaKatzmann [he/him]@hexbear.net
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          10 months ago

          That’s too much of a determined take. Why not make a more appropriate (i.e. seems more likely) kinda claim:

          Anyone who appears to be not joining because of the word Cr*cker was likely not going to join*

          * without an amount of effort which could likely be better used elsewhere, towards materially marginalized groups, fomenting solidarity, organizing, etc.

          NOTE: I try to give others a chance at least. Thankfully comrades such as yourself and others can operate more pragmatically rather than with naïvety and so can cover my blind spots

    • BurgerPunk [he/him, comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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      10 months ago

      Arguing that cracker is a slur is very “all lives matter” energy.

      A good measure of “not all men” energy too. White people need to learn to not identify with the construct of whiteness that makes white supremecy possible, just like men need to learn to not identify with the patriarchy.

      • IzyaKatzmann [he/him]@hexbear.net
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        10 months ago

        yeah good point, don’t think i’ve seen femme presenting people take issue with it. tbh the woman or femme specific slurs are like at least an order of magnitude worse.

    • xor@infosec.pub
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      10 months ago

      ya’ll just want to stick things together that don’t stick…
      all lives matter is so far away from that

  • bunnygirl [she/her]@hexbear.net
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    10 months ago

    lmao it’s that weirdo

    why does everybody who gets banned here feel the need to make an account on another instance to whine about it lol

    • axont [she/her, comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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      10 months ago

      I feel like a lot of them are coddled and had very sheltered upbringings. Getting mocked on hexbear is the first feeling of conflict in their whole lives. Remember that one guy who made a screenshot album of evertime someone on hexbear was rude to him? And it was like a hundred twenty images? They’ve never encountered backlash or a moment of discomfort in their entire lives so when they encounter us saying something as simple as “shut up cracker” it’s like a knife to their gut

  • sharedburdens [she/her, comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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    10 months ago

    they’re pretty adamant about communism but everyone thinks the USSR, CCP, etc are fascist dictatorships pretending to be communist.

    mao-wtf

    How has anyone possibly come away from here with that takeaway? Most people I’ve interacted with here will have specific concrete criticisms with all of the above, not just “oh it’s fascist”. That kind of critique is more what you would see in sectarian ultra or trot spaces. I swear people just gossip about us or something.

    • robinn_IV [he/him]@hexbear.net
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      10 months ago

      When your understanding of fascism is preschool-level. It all comes back to the “totalitarian” shit, and these people claim to be the “true leftists.” This isn’t gossip, it’s the one “compliment” they tried to give us.

  • Ithorian [comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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    10 months ago

    We have got the be the worst place to troll. Every time some tries we just put them on blast till they get banned and then sit around laughing at how dumb they were.

    • ShimmeringKoi [comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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      10 months ago

      Being called a cracker is a quantum state, it may or may not be applicable depending on who’s saying it, but if you get offended by it the quantum state collapses into a condition of definite crackerdom.

          • nohaybanda [he/him]@hexbear.net
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            10 months ago

            I don’t. White as a political category is at the root of racism and settler colonial genocide. To be white is to be a cracker, and a whole lot worse besides.

            • emizeko [they/them]@hexbear.net
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              10 months ago

              in support of your comment:

              Whiteness is also an imaginary concept and a figment of the racist imagination, of course, but that doesn’t make it any less real, or deadly; whiteness is a thing because people insist that it is, and use force and violence to make it so. Whiteness is a thing because white supremacists needed a name for their violent subjugation of others, and so they gave it one. In this way, whiteness is a uniquely virulent and pathological form of social identity. It cannot survive its loss of supremacy; it cannot abide competition or mixture or “impurity.” Created by racial slavery and given a second wind by European imperialism, whiteness depends on the violent subordination of all others. Celebrate your Irish heritage if you must, or your Pennsylvania Dutch grandparents; that has nothing to do with the whiteness that names me, now, but which (partially) excluded my Irish and German ancestors when they came to this nation. Irish and Pennsylvania Dutch can and will survive incorporation into a multi-ethnic nation, but it is the sine qua non of whiteness that it cannot and will not. Inextricable from racial subordination, whiteness has no other content at all: whiteness is what’s left in the melting pot after everything else has been burned away. Without that xenophobic fire, it has no meaning, no substance, no fundamental.

              This is why “white genocide” actually does have a meaning beyond “racial integration.” If you take away a white person’s ability to live as the undisputed master of the universe—to take his own experience as normal and privileged, and to presume all others to be debased copies of his own primary existence—then you take away his whiteness.


              from Buffalo Skulls

            • GarbageShoot [he/him]@hexbear.net
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              10 months ago

              There is “being white” in the sense that your society defines you as white and there’s “being white” in the sense that you define yourself as white, identify with whiteness beyond recognition of the first sense, and seek to preserve whiteness. I won’t die on this hill, but I think it’s fair to say crackers are category #2 plus anyone from category #1 who gets offended at the word “cracker”.