Donald Trump on Wednesday launched fresh vitriol against the judge and prosecuting attorney in his New York business fraud trial, carefully skirting a gag order imposed on him just a day prior.
Trump tried Tuesday to bully a court clerk, sharing false conspiracies about her as well as her personal information. Presiding Judge Arthur Engoron issued a gag order later that day prohibiting all parties involved in the case from publicly discussing court staff.
While Trump avoided mentioning court staff on Wednesday, he went all out with attacks against Engoron and New York Attorney General Letitia James.
“This is election interference. They made up a fake case, these fraudulent people,” Trump told reporters. “And the judge already knows what he’s gonna do. He’s a Democrat judge. In all fairness to him, he has no choice.… He’s run by the Democrats.”
For once, let there be consequences
Yeah. That is text book contempt of court, you can throw people in jail or give a fine for that.
edit: Like that is the whole point of the gag order. Stop talking about this or face consequences upon insisting on continuing. Without the face consequences part the gag order is meaningless plea for good behavior. You can do that personally just with "would you please not talk about this" by the judge. When one is issuing gag the whole point is "we don't believe you keep mouth shut on your own accord so we have to enforce it with pain of punishment".
I would love to see him in jail for this, but hear me out: I want to see him lose everything in New York first… and he didn’t actually break the gag order. Which makes me want to gag saying it, but here we are.
Trump’s strategy his entire life has been trying to find ways to flout the rules and make money. He thinks he’s “clever” by not paying people he owes and constantly fucking people over; that he’s a good businessman despite all the failures and obvious fraud.
The gag order specifically states that Trump can’t talk about the Judge’s staff. So he goes around that by going back to attacking the judge himself and the Letitia James… who aren’t covered by any gag order because they’re public officials, not court staff. Trump is once again just toeing the line of what could get him in actual trouble. He is genuinely a piece of shit.
All that being said, keep in mind that that the overall punishment is currently happening. It may not be Trump in jail, ever, because he’s a turd no one can seem to flush. But just, for a second, imagine a New York without the word Trump plastered on it. It will eat him alive for the rest of his life. And that’s not all that’s happening to him; I don’t think the rest of his life is going to be super fun for him. He seems miserable.
The dude desperately wanted to be accepted by New York’s elite; his dad owned shitty buildings in Queens (I think, someone can correct me if I’m wrong) so when Donald made it to Manhattan — where the ultra-wealthy live — it was huge for his ego. He’s been riding that ever since, except that high society still knows he’s dumb trash. His insecurity shows in how he acts, what he says, and how he talks about everything being so luxurious. He’s desperate to be accepted by the old world elite, but they despise him.
And now they’re scrubbing his entire legacy from New York. Not because they hate him, but because he’s very obviously a fraud. I don’t know if there could be a more direct rebuke to his actual “life’s work.” They’re erasing him.
Edited a typo
This was satisfying to read.
Thank you!
I could keep going, I am here for Trump’s slow miserable downfall. I want him to definitely not be in politics ever again, but I’m currently enjoying watching him get his ass handed to him. Over and over again.
He’s still facing lots of felonies too. Imagine having to keep going to court, and you’re being photographed all slouching next to the only attorneys who will work with you.
Not good lawyers, either. He made a choice in 2020 to try to stay in power by any means necessary, which meant aligning himself with Rudy Giuliani and a bunch of other “crazies,” which is literally what Mike Pompeo called them. After that, lawyers wouldn’t go near him, which is why that group is kind of the last Trump lawyers you heard a ton of detail about. Now they change all the time because no one with a name will work with him. Not only does he have several huge cases coming up, he can’t even get good lawyers.
He already lost this case, that’s why he’s so upset. And he might be coming to terms with the next year or more of his life sitting in court and being told what to do. It’s gotta be kind of a slap in the face. AND to have to go to New York to do it, which he hates now.
If he doesn’t spend the rest of his life looking miserable in court, he will look miserable honking into a microphone, or next to his very obviously miserable wife. Without good lighting he looks like the melting guy from the end of Robocop.
I want to watch him be miserable until he dies, and all of this has to be complete hell for a narcissist like him.
You're spot on. And what's worse (for Trump), is that he wouldn't even get the proceeds from sales of the properties. If he was forced to sell all the properties and was allowed to keep the money, it would at least add to his bank account total. That's something he values even more than being loved by the NY elites.
But no, he wouldn't keep the proceeds and he might actually be fined hundreds of millions of dollars on top of all this. The "Trump is a genius billionaire business man" part of his ego has been seriously wounded and is rapidly deflating.
Now if only Florida weren't in his pocket, they could access Mar-A-Lago's value at $1 billion for tax purposes. After all, that's what Trump said it was worth and he must be telling the truth, right?
I can see it now.
The judge taking away the phone from Trump and smashing it with a hammer. Only for Trump to summon a new phone from his pocket. Then the judge smashing that phone as well, only for Trump to keep summoning new phones ad infinitum as the judge keeps smashing them like some sort of Bugs Bunny cartoon.
Like that is the whole point of the gag order. Stop talking about this or face consequences upon insisting on continuing. Without the face consequences part the gag order is meaningless plea for good behavior.
He very carefully tiptoed around the gag order though. The order was to not talk about X, so he talked about Y and Z that were related to, but not included in X. Because he's going to rant about the case in whatever way he technically can, because that's what Trump does. Trump couldn't stop talking in public for 5 minutes on a bet, he has the verbal version of IBS.
He'd have a full-blown meltdown. It'd be glorious.
Narrator: there were no consequences.
If I could see a single consequence for anything he's done beyond the inconvenience of having to appear in court to continue denying he's done anything wrong prior to the 2024 election, it would make me so happy.
Has there ever been a whiny crybaby like this guy before?
He’s the biggest victim-player in the entire world. Sure is odd how his fans think he’s ultra-masculine just because he’s also an overconfident bully.
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Oh damn cry-bully is so good
Yep. I've had a couple relationships with people like that. Most recently, a gf who acted exactly like that… she'd blame all of our problems on me, never take accountability, never acknowledge that her actions or behavior could influence me too, was thrilled to criticize me but if I said anything about her (even very fair things where I shared blame) she'd either change the topic to something irrelevant to criticize me, or clam up or leave and then blame me for finding the conversation frustrating. Expected me to do all the housework, then blamed me for not doing enough. Spent most of her time on social media, blamed me for her not getting work done, was obsessed with things like "221 people wished me happy birthday on facebook!". Incredibly dysfunctional and infuriating after a while. Not like I'm an expert, but after watching 50 hours of NPD videos on YouTube she ticks all the boxes.
Nothing is ever their fault, they have never been wrong, and you are never good enough for them. Every story is either them being a badass or being a victim. Everything you do was to hurt them, you can't just be tired you are being lazy. You can't just want some alone time you are separating yourself from them.
Oh I didn't know one of my siblings had a lemmy account
They also think his complete disregard and sexual misconduct towards women is super masculine
Usually mankind doesn't give them a platform… but yeah of course there a lot of people who's lives run on blaming others.
He's the whiniest. People come up to him. Big, strong men with tears in their eyes. They say "Sir, you whine more than anyone else!"
I tried to give you an extra upvote for this one 😆
"Sir, it is very unfair how they treat you!!"
"Yes, unfair, very unfair…"
Alex Jones pretty much pulled the same stunt and we all saw how well that played out for him
Kinda fine so far? As of a couple of weeks ago, he still hadn't paid a dime to any of the Sandy Hook families because he declared bankruptcy. He's still spending a bunch of money and still doing Info Wars. It'll probably catch up to him eventually? I hope? https://apnews.com/article/alex-jones-sandy-hook-shooting-bankruptcy-34192bd7d89ed786f64580682f6ea89e
It's wild how gentle the courts are with the rich and powerful doing absolutely abhorrent shit on massive scales
But find a joint roach on a poor person unfortunate enough to not have light skin, and they're near instantly thrown into jail for years and years
I don't know how anybody can not think that the justice system is broken
So first off, yes rich people have HUGE advantages in court. That being said, the clear difference here is that civil trials and criminal trials function very differently and on wildly different timetables.
It's QUITE fast, generally speaking, to start a civil processing and much slower to actually see restitution, and the exact opposite is true for criminal cases.
Considering he openly admitted that he was going to hide his money in offshore accounts so the victims won't get it, he's still spouting conspiracy nonsense on infowars, and has maintained exactly the same lifestyle he had before, I'd say it went pretty well for him.
Meanwhile the rest of us aren't treated like we are drugking mafia dons for missing a hundred dollars on our tax return or bring slightly over the limit. It's fucking pathetic, they bully downwards.
Elon Musk kinda comes to mind, but Trump shits all over what Musk has done…
So far… lol
What a trainwreck of a man. He could have just let SpaceX do it's thing and pretend he was the super tech genius behind it and be loved for life. In a way I am glad, him messing around with Twatter and Tesla keeps him distracted from breaking the one smart investment he ever made.
I wish I could hear from the republican side a reasoning why apparently nobody in their side has the balls to prosecute this obviously criminal person. It's crazy how far from truth we have become in all sides of the fence. I hope humanity survives to properly analyze the reasons how it came to this.
How it came to this does not require deep analysis. Unchecked conservatism naturally leads to fascism. This has been the case throughout history.
The conservatism in the Democrat party is slightly checked by the progressives, but the Republicans have done nothing at all to check the conservatism in their party. So, now they are a fascist party. Simple.
Conservatism is a plague of oppression and death. It always has been
A useful analysis would go deeper.
Republicans have done nothing at all to check the conservatism in their party
Ok so why haven't they? And why does so much of the population support the fascists that the Republicans have become?
Ok so why haven't they?
I would argue because it's useful to have the circus and distraction, they have things they don't want to see the light of day, and/or they believe they and their buddies are above the law.
And why does so much of the population support the fascists that the Republicans have become?
Because they're fed a diet of propaganda over decades that they believe whole heartedly and refuse to hear otherwise no matter what the evidence is. "Republicans aren't the fascists! Antifa is!"
Was Soviet Union conservative?
Yes. The governments of the Soviet Union and the majority of the population were famously socially conservative.
Your disingenuous question reminds me that every word uttered by a conservative is deception or manipulation. Every word.
I'm not a conservative.
Every word.
Haha.
I can assure you, as much as you're trying, I won't become a conservative either. But I'm also done listening to your pointless drivel :)
I'd say yes. They may not politically identify as such, but they were functionally socially similar to the American conservative movement, which is likely why they find such ready allies within it.
There are a handful of examples already that we can look back on, Weimar Germany for example…
Yes, and Russia/Soviet Union especially led an anti-truth campaign all through 1900s. And it continues.
nobody has the balls
He'll let them steal what they wanna steal and hurt who they wanna hurt as long as he's in power and the moment he fucks up someone else will be along to destroy him and you can join the crowd saying "Oh we had no idea, what a shame". As long as them don't let him sucker them into committing crimes on his behalf Trump is a gift to the Republican party, someone who can loudly be what they feel compelled to be quietly, then just be disposed of when he's no longer useful.
nobody has the balls
He'll let them steal what they wanna steal and hurt who they wanna hurt as long as he's in power and the moment he fucks up someone else will be along to destroy him and you can join the crowd saying "Oh we had no idea, what a shame". As long as them don't let him sucker them into committing crimes on his behalf Trump is a gift to the Republican party, someone who can loudly be what they feel compelled to be quietly, then just be disposed of when he's no longer useful.
I don't know if it'd be considered legal under the constitution, but someone needs to issue a blanket gag order that basically says he's not allowed to say anything to the public, directly or indirectly, until after his trials are over. Otherwise he's going to keep finding loopholes that allow him to get past the gag order.
That would be a First Amendment violation, because it would also prohibit legal speech. The only way he's not able to reach the public is if he's in jail.
If he goes to jail - a justifiable sentence for continually violating gag orders - his minions will call that a First Amendment "Deep State" thing. And they might not be far from the truth.
It's going to be really bad, the more he threatens people. It's going to even worse if he goes to jail.
Edit: I wanted to add, "The only way he stops sending his threats is if he dies," but that's not even true.
If he dies of natural causes, or an accident, or by murder - doesn't matter. His followers will blame their enemies, and they will act. There is no way this all ends with anything but violence. The only question is when, and how much.
Thing is… they're gonna do what pumped up hate-fueled idiots always do, no matter how much factual reality differs from their oh-so-sacred claims. It doesn't matter if this asshat lands in jail or at the bottom of an empty elevator shaft. They're going to erupt in violence and will need to be put down in kind.
Just, yank the fuckin' bandaid already, get this over with, FFS. Waiting doesn't make it better for anyone.
And although there will be short-term pain with the MAGA folks committing terrorist acts in the name of Trump, long term it would hurt the movement.
Say Trump is thrown into prison for life tomorrow. Who leads the MAGA movement towards their goals? Who even tells them what their goals are? Rob DeSantis? At one point, maybe, but now it isn't likely. Don Jr? Perhaps but he's not his father. Vivek Ramaswamy? Maybe, but he doesn't have the support.
The most likely outcome would be that MAGA fractures. You'd have Don Jr MAGA, DeSantis MAGA, Vivek MAGA, etc. Each MAGA group would insist that THEY are the successor to Trump MAGA and would fight amongst themselves to prove who is the true
ScotsmanMAGAman. The movement would be weakened as a result.That's also what culling "the weak" could look like. You do realize that those among us who read for comprehension, think critically, and otherwise operate at what much of the world might consider a default level of intelligence have been underestimating the whole lot of these morons from the jump, right? What say we stop doing that, hmm?
Nobody should ever GAf about what "his minions" think, say, or do. They are all violent anti-American fascists.
The keyword there is "violent".
If they were just rambling on on Trump's twitter-knockoff, then I'd agree with you. But we've seen January 6, along with several examples of lone wolves willing to act on their own. There's a reason why virtually everybody involved with these cases have extra security detail and why these courtrooms continually go into virtual lockdown every time new charges are brought against Trump.
They might be idiots, but their bullets do just as much damage.
Yes; my point was not to be held hostage by them. (queue Twilight Zone spoiled child reference here)
a martyred Trump is a national nightmare.
The question is this: Sometimes its pretty solid to issue repeated gag orders (in front of the watching jury), and everyday have to drag the defendant up and once again talk about how they violated the gag order in spirit and have to get even further sanctioned… while the whole jury sits and watches it.
Everytime it happens the jury becomes further pitted against the asshole who is wasting their time.
Yeah but there’s no jury in the New York civil fraud case. It’s just the judge, and he’s already ruled against Trump (on the most important claim, there are others), the remaining trial is just to see what the damages will be (and to determine the status of the other claims).
Ah, thats right.
Well, in that case its extra going to be a bad hand for Trump, I guess.
Everytime the Judge extends him an olive branch to shut the fuck up and Trump proceeds to double down on his rhetoric, I imagine the Judge is bumping up the amount owed he has in his head already as the trial continues.
Like it's absolutely wild when you have this judge as the sole delegate as to just how hard you are going to get dinged, and you decide "ah yeah lets talk shit about this person"
Thats… not going to go well at all… lol
He's likely hoping one of his nutjob followers kills the judge. It also lines up to imprison the judge if he gets back into the White House.
And then him and his lackeys cry “unfair trial”
It may go better than you think.
There are reports already out that the judge in this case undervalued at least some of Trump's properties when making his fraud ruling. Now if Trump can goad him into making any kind of personal comments that even give the appearance that the judge is biased, he can use all of that on appeal in hopes of getting the whole thing thrown out.
"This judge made numerous factual errors in his original ruling of fraud, grossly undervaluing the Trump brand and the value of our properties. And during the trial, he said X, Y, and Z in response to me exercising my First Amendment rights under the Constitution. He would not allow us to file for a jury trial even though amended filings are commonplace in our court system. Therefore, we ask the appeals court to throw the entire case out entirely."
Adjust for legalese as necessary, but that's pretty much what Trump is going to go for. And keep in mind that, contrary to the beliefs of some, Trump's record in these cases isn't nearly as bad as some claim. Will it work? At worst, I'd say the chances are nonzero. But those chances significantly increase if this judge actually does anything that an appeals court rules as even slightly improper. And that's what Trump is trying to goad this judge into.
Our system of justice is not really designed to balance the First Amendment rights of someone who is expressing an opinion or otherwise just venting frustration when that same person's word can literally cause nationwide violence. How do you handle someone like Trump when attempting to silence, gag, or jail him could spark nationwide violence at any time and put everyone involved with the case and their families at risk, but not attempting to do so only emboldens him and causes him to make even more violent threats?
The judge is not in real estate, he's a judge. He didn't dream up figures to fry Trump. James would have gotten them from sources who are real estate experts, and at this level the sources must have been deemed independent and unbiased by the judge to use them.
As long as the case took to build, and as it all rests on these figures, the people who matter must have full confidence in them under scrutiny.
Any suggestion that the figures are flawed likely comes from Team Trump, and would be in line with their long list of dubious claims both in and out of court.
Any suggestion that the figures are flawed likely comes from Team Trump, and would be in line with their long list of dubious claims both in and out of court.
Actually, it's coming from articles such as this.
Even if the judge had a good-faith reason to believe the values that he was presented with, those values being wrong could easily be enough to have the case thrown out regardless of who's fault the error was. (This assumes that the properties were undervalued in the first place, of course).
If the arguments made in that article are accurate, it becomes a question of whether an appeals court believes that the judge jumped the gun in issuing his ruling of fraud instead of giving Trump's legal team an opportunity to make their case that the properties were undervalued. (IMO, this should have been done anyway, as there's no way he can make this case without admitting to even more serious tax fraud charges, as he was simultaneously under-valuing the properties himself for tax evasion purposes.)
If these property valuations really are wrong, there's a case for an appeal here. Now add Trump's usual spin to it and the fact that eventually the case is going to end up in front of a Trump-friendly panel of judges (even if he has to appeal all the way to the SC to get there), and you end up with a case that may be messy and incoherent because it's Trump after all, but still a case who's chances of being successful are still uncomfortably above zero.
If those arguments have merit then they'll have to sort out the details of how much Trump overvalued his properties. As I understand it that is the purpose of the trial at this point.
The Florida-based real estate pros referenced in the article didn't throw out any estimated values of Mar a Lago, and they didn't suggest it hadn't been overvalued by Trump.
The lawyer in NYC quoted seems to have little concern over the whole thing.
| Cintron, the Harrington Ocko & Monk partner, doesn’t think the Mar-a-Lago valuation controversy moves the needle on the question of whether Trump committed fraud.
| “There is enough of a pattern of this practice that he’s engaged with in respect to his properties to support Judge Engoron’s conclusions that there was an intent to defraud,” Cintron said.
EDIT: Apologies for formatting, I haven't figured out quotes in Lemmy
"The judge doesn't like me" "The judge was very unfair to me."
Now you know why.
Yeah, no, that is a direct violation of his 1st amendment rights. He knows he's playing catch me if you can with the court and his mouth because the court can only gag very narrowly defined speech. For instance the court could say he can't talk about pickles, so he talks about cucumbers soaked in a brine. The court tells him he cannot talk about cucumbers soaked in a brine. So he talks about a green vegetable roughly the size of a pickling cucumber that you then put into a mixture that contains seasonings, vinegar, etc. Will he eventually run out of ways to describe a pickle? Sure, but he'll have wasted shitloads of the judge's time and distracted from what was actually happening in court. And it's working. Do you know anything about what has been presented so far in the case? You probably don't because those articles don't bring the clicks and views like stories about his latest shenanigans on social media.
My blood boils a little bit just seeing this behaviour described. Probably because it's relatable kids behaviour.
Trump has said that his temperament hasn't changed since he was in the first grade so it tracks that he uses the same tactics that little kids use.
The difference, of course, is that the little kids will grow out of this behavior. Trump won't.
The judges in each case can issue a gag order against discussing anything and anyone pertaining to the case in public. That would be bulletproof and also constitutional.
The problem is enforcement. We both know that Trump wouldn't be able to go 5 minutes without violating it. But then what?
Jail him? Congratulations, you made him a martyr. His poll numbers are going to skyrocket and his die-hard followers are going to interpret it as a call to action. You've hired a bunch of extra security for yourself , everyone on your team right down to the custodian, and their families, right? There's a reason why nobody has been willing to do this yet. There's a reason there are so many reports about lawmakers unwilling to remove Trump from office due to fears of retaliation. There's also the optics that Trump already spins on the daily about jailing a political opponent, and the fact that he is the leading Republican candidate which, like it or not, is going to give him a lot of leeway as judges are loathed to curtail political speech.
Fine him? Objective reports say that the man has at least $400 million cash on hand. While his business isn't nearly as valuable as he claims it is, he does have several billion dollars in assets around the world that can be tapped. Any fine would qualify as little more than a rounding error on his taxes, and any attempt to issue a fine that would actually impact him is almost guaranteed to be struck down on appeal as excessive. Fining him in an attempt to curb his behavior would be as effective as telling you I'm going to fine you about $1.79 if you don't knock it off. The man just got slapped with a $5 million smack for sexually assaulting and defaming E. Jean Carroll, and was right back on the air less than 24 hours later saying even worse stuff. Monetary fines do nothing.
Keep warning him? How many times did your mom say "1…2…Two and a half…" before you realized that there is no 3? Same thing here.
Move the case up early? There are numerous legal, procedural, and logistical issues that would make this a non-starter. Numerous talking heads have written this off as an empty threat that would be impossible to actually enact, while giving Trump's legal team grounds for appeal.
And before anyone says "So what are we supposed to do with him then? Just let him keep doing what he wants with impunity?"…that's the exact question our entire judicial system is currently tasked with answering, and nobody seems to have come up with one yet. How do you handle someone who is hellbent on doing what he wants, but also has the resources and ability to force people to back down out of legitimate fear of retribution to themselves, their associates, and their families?
Congratulations, you made him a martyr.
That's what he and his cult already believe and will continue to believe no matter what happens or doesn't happen.
His poll numbers are going to skyrocket
Nah, he has more or less reached his ceiling. He has a number of people who are members of the cult and would never abandon him without literal cult deprogramming and the majority of the population would never vote for him after what he's already said and done.
You've hired a bunch of extra security for yourself , everyone on your team right down to the custodian, and their families, right?
You mean like is already the case now that he's slandering and vilifying most of them with no consequences to himself?
There's a reason why nobody has been willing to do this yet. There's a reason there are so many reports about lawmakers unwilling to remove Trump
True, but not the one you think.
There's also the optics that Trump already spins on the daily about jailing a political opponent
THAT'S the actual reason.
that he is the leading Republican candidate which, like it or not, is going to give him a lot of leeway as judges are loathed to curtail political speech.
"Like it or not" is an awfully casual reaction to the powerful getting blatant special treatment, which is in itself against the law
And before anyone says "So what are we supposed to do with him then? Just let him keep doing what he wants with impunity?"…that's the exact question our entire judicial system is currently tasked with answering
The question is literally answered already. Letting him get away with constantly and blatantly breaking the law is in itself negligent bordering on being criminal.
Nah, he has more or less reached his ceiling. He has a number of people who are members of the cult and would never abandon him without literal cult deprogramming and the majority of the population would never vote for him after what he’s already said and done.
This is what people said about him being impeached. Then it's what they said about him being impeached the 2nd time. Then it's what they said about him losing the election. Then about when he was indicted the first time. Then the 2nd. Then the third. Then the fourth. Notice a pattern yet?
You’ve hired a bunch of extra security for yourself , everyone on your team right down to the custodian, and their families, right?
You mean like is already the case now that he’s slandering and vilifying most of them with no consequences to himself?
Easy to say when you're not the one putting yourself, your staff, and all your families directly at risk. Senators refused to oust him from office out of fear for their safety. Courtrooms shut down, sometimes for days, out of fear of retribution. People who have infinitely more resources and in many cases the power of the US government behind them, and they still refuse because of credible threats.
There’s a reason why nobody has been willing to do this yet. There’s a reason there are so many reports about lawmakers unwilling to remove Trump
True, but not the one you think.
There’s also the optics that Trump already spins on the daily about jailing a political opponent
THAT’S the actual reason.
This is another reason, yes. But it is not the primary one. If this were the issue, it would be cleared up in appeals, pre-trial hearings, etc.
that he is the leading Republican candidate which, like it or not, is going to give him a lot of leeway as judges are loathed to curtail political speech.
“Like it or not” is an awfully casual reaction to the powerful getting blatant special treatment, which is in itself against the law
No, it's an acknowledgement of the reality of the situation. Trump is the leading GOP candidate for POTUS, and judges are absolutely going to give him a lot of leeway in order to avoid the appearance of interfering with political speech. Whether they are right or wrong for doing so is certainly up for debate, but it's absolutely going to happen.
And before anyone says “So what are we supposed to do with him then? Just let him keep doing what he wants with impunity?”…that’s the exact question our entire judicial system is currently tasked with answering
The question is literally answered already. Letting him get away with constantly and blatantly breaking the law is in itself negligent bordering on being criminal.
Again, a very easy comment to say when you're not the one standing directly in the line of fire. It's much, much different when it's your offices getting bomb threats, your kids' pictures and identifying info being published online, and your family members who aren't even involved receiving daily threats. And it's also very easy to say that when the subject isn't capable of summoning mobs of idiots, some of which are armed to the teeth and willing to commit violence.
Look, I'm not saying Trump should walk. I agree that someone needs to actually start using the tools available to put this guy away. The problem is that the process actually has to be started by an actual person, there doesn't seem to be too many people willing to put their family's safety at risk in order to pull the trigger, and its understandable why those in power who can pull the trigger are reluctant to do so.
That's not really how the law works, and judges generally take a dim view when someone is trying to circumvent their order.
Of all the types of speech protected by the courts, none is more highly valued than political speech. So there's no way in hell a court would try to impose blanket silence on a political candidate.
Except for the fact that his "political speech" consists of threats and slander, both of which are illegal.
There's a (ridiculous) law excempting lies told by politicians on the floor of Congress, but no such thing for someone who's not even in public office committing stochastic terrorism almost every day
There’s a (ridiculous) law excempting lies told by politicians on the floor of Congress
You mean the Constitution's speech and debate clause?
Yes, that ridiculous exemption. If you can't make your political point without literal slander and fraud, you shouldn't get special treatment for making it where that kind of thing is at its most destructive to society and the population as a whole.
How would you change this protection in order to address your concerns while still serving the important purpose of protecting legislators from retaliation?
I would remove it.
You still have to prove intention and that it unfairly harms or enriches someone, which means that good faith errors and differences of opinion are already legally protected just like with everyone else.
As for politicians and their supporters using unwinnable lawsuits to harass and damage their opponents, that's what anti-SLAPP laws are for.
Tl;Dr: there's no valid justification for letting politicians say and do what would be against the law for regular people.
Historically, this protection was a necessary limit on the prosecutorial power of the executive/king.
Simply throwing it out seems like an over reaction that doesn't take into account the actual justifications for its existence.
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like a half eaten toasted Twinkie
I'm utterly unsurprised. The man is incapable of keeping his big mouth shut.
He can swallow his own first with it though.
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It's actually a weirdly little mouth.
Is the judge not a member of the court staff?
I haven't been able to find the exact text of the order. When speaking about it, the judge kept referencing "members of my court staff" and a reasonable argument could be made that that did not include the actual judge.
Let’s just hope the judge can clamp down on Trump over all this. Also when I normally say “don’t threaten anybody in my family” most people wouldn’t misunderstand it as “but you can threaten me, totally fine” but I wouldn’t be surprised if trump asked his staff who he could lash out at while staying within the gag order and this is what he came up with.
if trump asked his staff who he could lash out at
Like he asks anyone those type of things. He's just Leroy Jenkins his tweets and let's people sort it out after the fact
True haha
I think the judge has to keep their eyes on the prize, which is finding the most equitable outcome for all parties.
That only includes trying to keep Trump inline insofar as his behaviour might jeopardise an equitable outcome.
That means protecting court staff so they may execute their duties, but issuing orders needs to be balanced against the chances trumps supporters will believe the final ruling is inequitable.
True to form, that's exactly how Trump has responded to this gag order "see! It's all rigged!"
finding the most equitable outcome for all parties.
Letting Trump abuse his national platform to pervert and prevent the course of justice has nothing to do with fair treatment.
Also, as it's a somewhat adversarial thing, an equitable OUTCOME would defeat the point. Especially in the case of Donald where there's no doubt about his guilt.
The main job of these lawsuits aren't finding out whether he's guilty, it's locking down the facts in such a manner that the worst bad faith and illogical but still following the letter of the law arguments against reality can't gain legal traction.
Edit: having read the rest, I am now convinced that you're using the wrong word. It's fairness, not equity.
No matter the outcome and any circumstances, including letting him get away with hundreds of times more than a regular defendant, his cult following will continue to claim that he's an innocently persecuted martyr. That's how cults work.
Tl;dr: Trump is already being shown excessive leniency and basing anything on the reaction of a cult is lunacy.
An equitable outcome means that everyone's interests (including the public's) are appropriately weighed.
My point is, it's the outcome which is important. The more bs there is along the way, including gag orders et cetera, the more fertile ground for discontent later on.
And my point is that the appropriate weight to give to the comfort of the obviously guilty and blatantly manipulative Trump’s wish to threaten and defame without consequences is none.
As for discontent later on, that's a given, since his cult will believe his claims no matter how obviously false ni matter what anyone does or says, so trying to please them is a lost cause.
The only significant effect of imposing a general gag order is on the safety of those he'll vilify to his unhinged and frequently violent cult following.
That and the news will be less saturated with his nonsense, but that's just a very pleasant bonus.
I don't see anyway his supporters ever see any negative outcome as just. The longer you let him spout off, the more they ll be convinced it's a sham… Because he's telling them that.
It's s tough position for the judge to be sure but at some point, you have to address his bad behavior.
https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/23979185-trump-gag-request
It looks like that's the criminal trial gov v trump org and it's the request for gag order by the state.
Is this it? Unfortunately things are hard to find and I am new to this.
Well, that's one of his gag orders, but it's from the DC case. But I really appreciate you going out of your way to try to find it - thanks!
I tried :)
You did! There’s just so much going on with him that it’s getting really hard to keep everything straight :)
So is this when he gets locked up for contempt of court? What consequences does he face for violating the gag order? If nothing, it's just business as usual…
He didn't violate it.
I'm suspicious he didn't violate something for once
Isn't the judge part of court staff? Which he just discussed publicly?
Dictators just love shooting themselves in the head, don't they
Unfortunately it happens long after their damage has already been done
The cornered coward will lash out at everyone and no doubt would back and suggest/support an armed civilian conflict if it meant delaying his inevitable upcoming demise
to paraphrase a Russian training manual: the end state of a useful idiot is to burn them down in a way to cause maximum damage or confusion
causing another US civil war has been a foreign intelligence goal for years, and trump is dumb and evil enough to do it for them
As much as I hate to admit it, falling victim to the same tactics that we used in most of South America is probably just deserts.
He did it once
Throw him in the clink.
What about Hillary's email server? 😂
Buttery males!
Dig that hole deeper and deeper.
