• usernamesAreTricky@lemmy.ml
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    1 year ago

    It's worth noting that in countries like US, it's really only things like beyond burgers and impossible meat that cost more. It doesn't require eating those for a plant-based diet nor are people typically eating those every meal, is why plant-based diets generally have lower costs

    Compared to meat eaters, results show that “true” vegetarians do indeed report lower food expenditures

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0921800915301488?via%3Dihub

    It found that in high-income countries:

    • Vegan diets were the most affordable and reduced food costs by up to one third.

    • Vegetarian diets were a close second.

    • Flexitarian diets with low amounts of meat and dairy reduced costs by 14%.

    • By contrast, pescatarian diets increased costs by up to 2%.

    https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2021-11-11-sustainable-eating-cheaper-and-healthier-oxford-study

    • ericbomb@lemmy.worldOP
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      1 year ago

      Oh yeah I 100% spend less on food as a vegetarian, because black beans/lentils are such wonderful cheap sources of protein.

      But sometimes I want like the premade like meat crumbles or burgers, and those cost more usually.

      • Match!!@pawb.social
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        1 year ago

        But do you spend less because you're vegetarian, or because you don't have options for spending money at fast food / restaurants?

        • ericbomb@lemmy.worldOP
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          1 year ago

          I mean a pound of beef costs $4.

          A pound of raw lentils like a $1.

          Lentils are more calorie dense.

          Lentils are more protein dense.

          Black beans are in similar camp.

          Rice and wheat products are cheaper per calorie, but lack the protein.

          So yeah, it's just cheaper to be a vegetarian, even with massive beef subsidiaries. But veggie patties are still more expensive because of processing and they are smaller batches.

          • scala@lemmy.ml
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            1 year ago

            To add to this as a vegan of 10+ years. To supplement the lack of protein, I use pea based protein powder for a meal. And add hemp seeds for other meals/snacks during the day.

            We occasionally get the processed grounds/meat substitutes only when they are on sale. Which would be 2lbs for $6 for a gardien/beyond/impossible alternative to animal flesh in pounds.

              • BlanketsWithSmallpox@lemmy.world
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                1 year ago

                I've always had issues with lentils but my diet is very Midwest American lol. The only time I've had good lentils is when they're masked as much as possible in heavily spiced curries or similar.

                Aren't they already used in a bunch of processed foods as filler?

              • Ataraxia@sh.itjust.works
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                1 year ago

                My mom would make lentil stew with sausage and I always ate the sausage and left the lentils. Was also forced to stay at the table until bed time because I refused to eat them. I need meat with my legumes that is if I am not working because I have a severe carb intolerance so anything from oats, to brown rice to beans and tubers trigger my IBS and make me confused. The only fix was 3 months of straight keto where I felt amazing, was exercising and looked great but… my boyfriend learned how to make pizza thw right way and nothing will ever replace the dough on pizza so once a week I have that, fast the rest and when I eat it's steak or chicken or shrimp or fish with spinach or something. I need to work so I can't just have a bean burrito or a bowl of rice or ill end up fired for spending too much time in the toilet or getting someone killed because I can't think.

                Must be nice to have that kind of privilege to eat what you want though!

            • ericbomb@lemmy.worldOP
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              1 year ago

              … okay you got me there.

              But the veggie tech to make meat likes is getting better, so hopefully soon!

    • TheFriendlyDickhead@lemm.ee
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      1 year ago

      I realy don't get why people eat those meat subsidies. They are realy not that good and unhealthy too. Cooking a meal just with vegetables and other stuff can taste realy good, is healthy and cheap at the same time.

      • WetBeardHairs@lemmy.ml
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        1 year ago

        Probably because Americans were raised on a super meat heavy diet. Meat burgers. Meat casseroles. Meat sauces. Meat everything. Fake meats make those recipes achievable for vegetarians and vegans who long for mom's home cooking.

        • 4lan@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          This is only a recent thing historically. Government subsidies and lobbying from the meat industry, not to mention letting agricultural corporations create our food pyramid, got us to where we are today.

          We have been led into an unhealthy lifestyle for the profit of a handful of billionaires.

          Take a look at places where people live above 100 yrs regularly. They aren't shoveling beef down there throats like Americans are. And we die 20 to 30 years earlier on average

        • Ataraxia@sh.itjust.works
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          1 year ago

          Italian here, sardegna. Sausage, porchetto, chicken, lamb (lots of it), small baby birds, brains, all kinds of fish especially sword fish, octopus and Squid, lots of cured meats… the list goes on. Every meal has a meat and we live the longest in italy.

      • KillAllPoorPeople@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        Want to hear some mind-blowing information? Not everyone likes the stuff you like, you're not the barometer on what is good or what is unhealthy.

      • MickeySwitcherooney@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        1 year ago

        You want the real reason in a thread jerking off vegetarianism? Here goes:

        1. Meat tastes great.
        2. It gives me a sense of fullness that plants rarely do (except beans).
        3. It's a better protein source.
        4. The iron, B12, etc. in it are more easily absorbed.
        5. Every brand of fake meat I've tried tastes terrible.
        6. It makes me feel the best mentally compared to eating other foods.
        • 4lan@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          Why is it that countries that don't eat red meat as much as Americans live far longer than we do?

          Okinawans live well past 100, and are doing physical activity into their 90s. Americans are falling apart by the time they turn 60, dead before they hit 80.

          I hope the flavor is worth the colon cancer!

          • fatalError@lemmy.sdf.org
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            1 year ago

            Not American myself, but I can think of a few factors besides meat:

            • less stress
            • less polution
            • less processed food, be it meat or not
            • less sugar
            • less sedentary lifestyle
            • genes

            Nutrition alone won't get you to 100. Having a diverse diet keeps ypu healty, but there are many factors that impact health. I do agree that meat is overused in general population, but can't really force the vegan/vegetarian lifestyle onto an omnivore specie.

          • mob@sopuli.xyz
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            1 year ago

            While moderation is the key to everything, and I wouldn't be surprised if cutting out red.meat is a lot healthier for the consumer

            Feels like you just randomly made something up here by comparing some random outlier stories you've heard.

          • MickeySwitcherooney@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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            1 year ago

            I’m sure that’s the only difference between the average American and people from those countries. Same exact genetics, lifestyles, air pollution, economy, etc.

            • 4lan@lemmy.world
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              1 year ago

              I would love you to show me where I said that’s the only difference.

              They also have a sense of community. Americans will fuck over anyone for a slight advantage.

              They also are physically active, unlike Americans eating 3k calories and sitting on their asses all day.

              There are actually many places on Earth that are just like Okinawa in that they have long lives. I think that’s evidence enough that genetics are not a big factor. They are not some sort of superhumans, They just live a better life.

              Go ahead and defend how Americans live… We are insatiable pigs, on a whole. Nearly half of us are overweight because we can’t control ourselves. We have no meaningful culture. We have no sense of community. We are individualistic to the core. And we die before we hit the age 80. But yeah America’s number one right?

          • FatCrab@lemmy.one
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            1 year ago

            Impossible and beyond taste delicious in respective appropriate dishes. Dunno wtf you're on about. Also a lot less prep and clean up to toss a frozen patty on the grill than cook a bunch of veggies. The downside is that it isn't particularly healthy-- at least on par with a red meat burger. But the idea that they all "taste bad" is just dumb and contrary to what clearly a ton of other people experience.

  • Hello_there@kbin.social
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    1 year ago

    Reminder that farmers can spend something like a dollar per cow per year to allow their cattle to roam through public lands to cause erosion, shit in streams, spread giardia, and give farmers reasons to kill coyotes and wolves.

    • TxTechnician@lemmy.ml
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      1 year ago

      Large heards grazing is necessary for grasslands to thrive.

      They till the ground, knock down tall dead plants, graze (but not "browse" the grass), fertilize, and water the grass.

      Deer and other fauna do not knock down the grass the way bovine do. We used to have millions of Buffalo. Now we use cattle as a substitute.

      If we don't do that, we have to burn the grassland. Or it dies.

      That's what we used to do in Kansas. It was quite fun. And the government paid us to do it.

      Anyways. Here's some evidence to back up what I'm saying: TED TALK

      • Hello_there@kbin.social
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        1 year ago

        In some places, sure. But not everywhere they are. And you could/should reintroduce bison where they can go instead of using cattle. And the government should get more than the pittance they get per head.

    • scottywh@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      While this is true, BLM land doesn't exist everywhere and as such it isn't true of all cattle farmers.

    • ericbomb@lemmy.worldOP
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      1 year ago

      Sorry corn farmers, this is about people food. Growing fuel doesn't really count.

      Growing corn that is only usable as animal feed counts as part of how beef industry is being propped up by the government.

      So yeah… I think only one or two corn farmers will be left in the chat after that.

        • Grumpy@sh.itjust.works
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          1 year ago

          They're all referring to corn subsidies.

          If you grow corn with subsidy and then sell that corn as livestock feed to cows, then you've indirectly further subsidized beef.

          Though… this viewpoint is partly misleading people. Corn stalks and pith which humans can't eat and need ruminant animals to process is what gets fed to them. We don't always feed corn kernels to cows en masse, though many farms do. If they can find a buyer for the kernel for other consumption (human, fructose syrup, etc), they will sell it that way as it is more profitable. So even if it wasn't subsidized and we only produce high priced corn for humans, we'd still feed the stalks and pith to cows.

        • ericbomb@lemmy.worldOP
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          1 year ago

          Correct, but the vast majority of corn subsidies are to grow corn not meant for humans to eat. They are to grow animal feed, or ethanol.

          So the first category I count as subsidizing the meat industry, since it exists purely to make raising live stock cheaper. The second category doesn't really impact food.

        • buzz86us@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          We need to fully remove subsidies on corn… Hemp is a full replacement that offers far more uses… AND it makes great fabrics to further reduce the use of polyester

  • Omega_Haxors@lemmy.ml
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    1 year ago

    Never say America can't afford to feed its people. It can, it just prefers to prop up failing and immoral industry instead.

  • That Dutch guy@feddit.nl
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    1 year ago

    Here it's not just that.

    The raw resources and production costs of oat milk is like, €0.30 per 2 liter.

    They sell it at €2.40.

    Healthy is capitalism here.

    • x4740N@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      Doesn't production of not milk use a ton of water and have am environmental impact

      One of the trends I have noticed with vegan users online is that they neglect to mention the environmental impacts of their own alternative products

  • queermunist she/her@lemmy.ml
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    1 year ago

    If you learn how to make your own patties from scratch it's pretty cheap - or to save time you can do what I do and eat beans directly from the air fryer 🤤

      • queermunist she/her@lemmy.ml
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        1 year ago

        I actually just rinse off canned beans, spray them with vegetable oil, toss em in at 400F for 8-12 minutes, then shake them in a baggie with salt and spices. Or mix them in a bowl with hot sauce. Or use them as a topping for rice. Or throw them in stir fry. Or sauteed onions and bell peppers, then put them on tortillas.

        God damn I love air fried beans

          • queermunist she/her@lemmy.ml
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            1 year ago

            All kinds!

            Airfried garbanzo beans are great as a salty snack (generally I like to use a sweet chili seasoning) or sauteed with onions and peppers and fajita seasoning and then served on soft tortillas. Airfried pintos are great as a salty snack (chili lime or nooche is best for them) or sauteed with corn and onions and taco seasoning, and then topped with fresh tomato and lettuce and put on crunchy tortillas. Airfried black beans are great as a salty snack (just straight with salt and pepper) or just drenched in hot sauce and eat em with a spoon.

            I wasted so much of my life thinking I didn't like beans because I'd only ever had nasty baked beans from school lunches. 😞

  • ThePenitentOne
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    1 year ago

    Absolutely fucked up that your taxes go to supporting animal abuse whether you like it or not. Although, arguably worse is how many people don't even give the animals' suffering a second thought and just take the selfish path. Even fucking stupider is that chicken can be bought at the same price as tofu per kg. Like what the shit? Stop subsidising it. It's environmentally destructive and incredibly immoral.

    • nodsocket@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      I've always thought that vegan activists would be a lot more successful if they could end these meat subsidies, instead of harassing the public. If the price of meat triples no one is going to be eating meat regardless of their politics.

      • clanginator@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        Yeah but good luck getting anything passed when the GOP and all of the animal agriculture lobbying industry will be screaming from the rooftops about how everyone's favorite foods will be more expensive.

      • ThePenitentOne
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        1 year ago

        Forcing people to do something is easier than making them change wilfully. But people still should have the moral integrity to make the right choice regardless. Plus, people are so propagandised and indoctrinated by the industry from politicians and other bullshit that it would be an incredibly hard battle to fight.

        • Ataraxia@sh.itjust.works
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          1 year ago

          Change zoning laws so I can raise my own in my backyard other than just chickens. I have no problem raising and slaughtering my food. No need for factory farms.

          • LemmysMum@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            How about we all raise our own cattle.

            Since we can't modify suburbia to accommodate that many cattle let alone the additional waste, how about we make specially designated places where we can send all our cows to live.

            And since everyone travelling back and forth to look after their cattle would be highly impractical how about we designate a handful of individuals to care for all of the cattle so everyone else can worry about their other jobs.

            And since it's difficult for a single family to store and consume a whole cow, how about we designate a group of people to slaughter and process them into more manageable pieces.

            And since everyone going to one place to get their meat and somewhere else to get the rest of their produce, how about we just sell them in one place together.

            It's almost like we know how this works out and should just improve the regulations around caring for our food while it's alive.

  • Smoogs@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    Depends. If you are eating non processed vegetables the costs goes way below even burgers.

    • ericbomb@lemmy.worldOP
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      1 year ago

      Oh yeah for sure! Just sometimes I wanna go to a place and order a similar looking thing as the people around me without paying a ton more XD

    • nodsocket@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      You can make vegan bean burgers for way less money than beef. A can of beans, flax seeds, bread crumbs, garlic and an onion are all you need.

    • teuniac_@lemm.ee
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      1 year ago

      And beans. And lentils. And peas.

      Also, opting for the burger options doesn't have to mean eating a huge quantity of them.

  • Fades@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    Just another toxic ad FUCK capitalist system. Fuck the planet they got quarterly profits to beat!!

  • SexyTimeSasquatch@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    Oh man, staple crops are subsidized waaaaaayyy more heavily than beef. Some of this grain goes to the beef industry as feed, so it is indirectly supported by taxes. But the reality is that the soy, barley, beans, or whatever else is in that veggie burger are subsidized directly and more extensively.

    • ericbomb@lemmy.worldOP
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      1 year ago

      Where in the WORLD did you hear that bit of propaganda?

      https://agriculturefairnessalliance.org/news/2020-farm-subsidies/

      https://scet.berkeley.edu/wp-content/uploads/CopyofFINALSavingThePlanetSustainableMeatAlternatives.pdf

      https://www.aier.org/article/the-true-cost-of-a-hamburger/

      https://www.ewg.org/news-insights/news/2022/02/usda-livestock-subsidies-near-50-billion-ewg-analysis-finds

      I can't even find any source saying more money is spent on any crop than on beef. It seems like it's totally made up. The numbers vary because it's hard to pin down, but I can't find a source saying anything besides "most subsidiaries go towards beef and dairy"

        • ericbomb@lemmy.worldOP
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          1 year ago

          I think you should read more carefully what that chart is showing.

          Corn for example is purple and gray mostly.

          Purple = live stock feed gray = biodiesel

          Soy is mostly purple, so most of it goes towards feeding live stock.

          So most of the subsidiary is just being spent to make it cheaper to raise live stock.

          • RedAggroBest@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            Just wanna point out that it's "biodiesel and Industry" specifically because ethanol is added to almost all gas and more.

            Ethanol is trashing engines and producing more waste via dead engines, all while providing jack shit for actual cleaner energy. The corn lobby landed ethanol requirements and it's never going away now that they've found that revenue stream.

        • Windex007@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          I don't want to speak for them, but one can interpret crops subsidized for the purposes of livestock feed AS a subsidy for livestock. If you look at the sum of the purple sections (livestock and feed), it's the largest.

          But you are right: buddy's own chart does show a larger direct subsidy for corn than direct subsidy for beef.

          • ericbomb@lemmy.worldOP
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            1 year ago

            You are correct, because barely any actually goes to corn we eat. Those subsidies exist just to make it cheaper to raise live stock. So while direct subsidies are higher for corn, it's so high purely to help raise live stock. Just because we "can" eat corn doesn't really impact the fact that we aren't, it's mostly live stock eating the corn the subsidies are paying for (And biofuel)

            • Scrubbles@poptalk.scrubbles.tech
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              1 year ago

              Yup, here in Iowa the vast, vast majority of corn is known as "cattle corn", and as described it's used for cattle (and biodiesel, and pigs). Most farmers only grow sweetcorn "for fun", as a side thing compared to the huge subsidies for cattle corn.

        • Pipoca@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          Pigs and chickens don't eat air, you know.

          70% of US soy becomes animal feed. Some of the rest is used industrially, or becomes biodisel. Relatively little US soy becomes soy sauce, tofu, etc.

          Soy subsidies, in practice, mostly function as a chicken and pork subsidy.

          You'll notice that we heavily subsidize animal feed crops like corn and soy, and spend much less money subsidizing fruits and veggies, nuts, and other legumes like black beans or lentils.

          • Sybil@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            Soy subsidies, in practice, mostly function as a chicken and pork subsidy.

            i think there's a case to be made that it's actually a corn subsidy more than chicken or pork.

          • Sybil@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            70% of US soy becomes animal feed.

            almost all soy is pressed for oil. the industrial waste from that process is the vast majority of what is fed to animals.

    • usernamesAreTricky@lemmy.ml
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      1 year ago

      Many of those types of crops used for feed aren't really aligned all that well. Corn for instance isn't going used so heavily in a plant-based diet as it is subsidized (corn is the most subsidized crop in the US). There is also separate food-grade and feed-grade soybeans. 90% of US soy production is going to feed (and not to mention a good portion of the other 10% is going to soybean oil which is not super helpful for a plant-based meat)

      90% of U.S. soybeans produced are used as a high-quality protein source for animal feed

      https://soygrowers.com/key-issues-initiatives/key-issues/other/animal-ag/

      Further, they are still getting massive amounts of direct subsidies

      The Department of Agriculture has spent almost $50 billion in subsidies for livestock operators since 1995, according to an EWG analysis.

      By contrast, since 2018 the USDA has spent less than $30 million to support plant-based and other alternative proteins that may produce fewer greenhouse gases and may require less land than livestock.

      https://www.ewg.org/news-insights/news/2022/02/usda-livestock-subsidies-near-50-billion-ewg-analysis-finds

      Also worth mentioning that beans are not particularly highly subsidized unless you are counting soybeans mentioned earlier.

  • negativeyoda@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    My favorite is that a a celiac, all the gluten free stuff is 20% more expensive. Because you know, rice and tapioca are such expensive, exotic ingredients

  • silentTeee@lemmy.sdf.org
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    1 year ago

    It's funny you mention this, because a few days ago I went to my local market to grab milk, and the regular milk was more expensive that the plant-based milk…never thought I'd see this day in the US!

  • LemmysMum@lemmy.world
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    Don't give a fuck. Tax the rich, then we can worry about what I eat.

    Veganism is class warfare.

  • lnee@lemm.ee
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    1 year ago

    Yes I could stop eating a pound a day but keto and vegetarian don't mix well