Israel’s military has informed the United Nations that the entire population of northern Gaza should relocate to the southern half of the territory within 24 hours, the U.N. spokesman, Stéphane Dujarric, said late on Thursday night, adding that such a movement — involving over one million people — would lead to “devastating humanitarian consequences.”
“The same order applied to all U.N. staff and those sheltered in U.N. facilities — including schools, health centers and clinics,” Mr. Dujarric said.
The U.N. was told that the marker dividing the north from south was Wadi Gaza, the statement said.
The U.N. Security Council is scheduled to hold an emergency meeting on Friday afternoon in a closed consultation format
While the Demographia report found Gaza City isn’t as packed as the world’s most dense cities, including Dhaka, Bangladesh, which has over 80,000 people per square mile, it’s more crowded than global cities, such as London, and three times more dense than Los Angeles, the most population-dense area in the US, according to the report.
They’re telling 1.1 Million people to move in 24hours in an area more dense than LA or London. In an area without power, fuel, or food.
They know it can't be done and they don't care. The rhetoric coming out of their government is pure genocide talk. One of the military guys got furious that anyone cared about Palestinian civilians.
I hope the US doesn't support this or stay silent. We need to have the balls to stand up to allies when they're in the wrong. The world said "not again" to the holocaust and now regularly looks the other way, and it's time countries stop letting this shit happen.
You know the US won’t. The gov’t is too far up it’s own ass and only sees numbers. Israel is profitable to us, and money is the only thing anyone in power gives a shit about. They don’t care that we’re dealing with terrorists, as long as the terrorists make them money.
Never again! Except for Tibetans, Uyghurs, First Nations in boarding schools/their forced sterilization, the Khmer Rouge, Pakistan/India/Bangladesh, North Korea, Rwanda, all the genocides by the Soviets, Bosnia…
Hundreds of millions of lives ended prematurely…
"Never again" is a phrase I learned in religious school as an American Jew, in the context of the contemporaneous genocides of WWI and WWII, and the genocides that were occurring in the 90s. I understand you're pointing out the hypocrisy of the Israeli government, but don't forget there are a lot of us out here who recognize genocide for what it is.
Never again is what was said after WW1, I'm not pointing out the Jewish hypocrisy, in pointing out the global hypocrisy.
there are a lot of us out here who recognize genocide for what it is.
Yes, but we don't have seats at any of the tables where that matters.
I agree with the overall sentiment, but some of these mentions are not accurate and imo devalues the importance of such important accusations (e.g. since when was NK genociding anyone?)
They run camps that are comparable to the Jewish camps during WW2, the only difference being that they're doing it to themselves…
Evidence? Beyond “A guy said that a guy said that…”
Are you seriously questioning the existence of North Korea’s concentration camps?
https://www.state.gov/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Prisons-of-North-Korea-English.pdf
https://www.cnn.com/2023/03/23/asia/north-korea-torture-prison-report-intl-hnk-dst/index.html
https://www.amnesty.org/en/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/asa240012011en.pdf
Well, it can't because congress is non functional.
Hurricane evaculations over days are a mess even with power, fuel, and food…
The chaos with the with the evacuations is that everybody's driving in the same direction, and in Palestine, people don't have any vehicles.
Yes, it's the vehicles that are the problem and not a bunch of panicking people who don't know where to go or what to do.
I'm sure threat of imminent death at the hands of people who think they're baby-killers is probably not affecting them at all.
Come on man, use some critical thinking and context here. He clearly is not saying that cars some kind of an issue here. He was making an idle point about traffic jams in the US with hurricane evacuations and how that doesn't apply in this situation. He's not even making a value judgement on anything here.
They made a direct comparison. They placed blame on how vehicles are the main issue, and how Palestinians dont have them.
Maybe use some critical thinking skills yourself.
Who did? I was responding to someone who brought up that issue, so my response was related to their point and my comment was mostly intended to focused on how the lack of certain resources could negatively impact those who are dependent on those things.
Otoh, the the difference in travel modalities makes a big difference in what problems there are and my comparison to hurricane evacuations obviously lacked in that respect. It's only natural someone would point out that limitation of my comparison.
1million+ people on foot in a war zone all heading in one direction on war torn infrastructure will be a disaster even without cars.
Don't forget that the shelling has already been going on for awhile now.
And all that assumes you’re actually physically capable of walking to the safe zone
Or fuel, remember, they don't have water, food or electricity.
They do actually! A journalist was talking about it on Radio-Canada earlier today, he's visited twice since 2017 (having come back a couple of weeks ago) and noted the contrast between fairly recent cars and horse carts using the same streets!
True… probably actually a benefit that they don't have cars as they're less efficient than just walking. But for those who physically aren't able to walk for hours straight (depending on how far they need to go), some alternative mobility is needed.
Fuck off with your anti car bullshit. This isn't the time or place.
Nah dude, they have a point actually.
Ive lived through an evac or two thanks to some years spent in Florida during hurricane season.
A standard car is limited in the ways it can travel, it needs road or something approximating road so that it can travel without destroying the wheels, tires or undercarriage. If you put too many cars on a road there's only so much distance that'll be travelled in a period of time. Similar to a DDoS.
Walking on the other hand, well people can really just walk anywhere. You don't need roads you just need a decent set of footwear and it's difficult for walking to get backed up because you can just walk around someone.
Flying off the handle because someone pointed out that cars aren’t universally useful? Don’t think it’s the time or place for that tbh.
Telling someone to fuck off isn't flying off the handle.
Yeah so uh… a bunch of people are gonna die in 24h :(
I just want to remind everyone that the only reason you’re not a civilian in gaza right now shitting yourself over the consequences of the actions of violent group who hasn’t held elections since 2006 is just pure birth lottery. Keep that in mind before you say something stupid.
TFW you roll a natural 1 on your background.
Time for a genocide. And no one's going to stop them. Fucking hell.
Some of my friends have suggested that there might not be a Gaza to fight for independence for in a few years. I didn't believe them, but now it definitely looks more possible…
And who's fault is that? Hamas gave Israel the perfect excuse to do so and with good enough PR.
A tiny group within a population of over 2 million.
Honestly what the fuck are comments like this supposed to mean? You think they deserve to be slaughtered, down to the last child, because of what a small extremist group form the same region did? You know half the people in Gaza are under 18?
Do you think they all voted for this? Hamas took control after netanyahu created and funded them to destabilize the Gaza strip, this is a known fact that they've basically admitted. He made sure they were the only governing body that could e, ist so they could excuse anything they wanted to do to the gazans they keep in an open-air prison.
I hope the FBI or whatever the equivalent in your country is keeps pro-genocide people like you on a watch list.
a tiny group
Afghanistan: glares pointedly
To be clear: It is not my intent to be an Al Qaeda or Hamas apologist in any way, shape, or form with that comment. I am simply pointing out the parallels to a situation that had my government chasing some sort of dragon for over twenty fucking years and burned an absurd quantity of resources and blood for pretty much fucking zero long term gain. Like, there wasn’t even any oil. It was all just fury, spite, and nebulous sentiments of revenge and “justice”. I grew up with that. That was a large part of the background of my adolescence. That’s a weird thing. We should acknowledge it as a weird thing. Don’t do that to a generation of your kids, Israel. It’s bad for them.
then you should.know better and warn your allies against such action.
I just want to add that the last time they were even able to hold an election was 17 years ago, so the majority of people there now obviously were not old enough to vote back then.
59% of the "innocent" civilians supports Hamas.
And who's fault is that?
Hamas brain washing, just look at their propaganda.
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Israel is responsible for the rise of Hamas. They destroyed secular movements and funded Hamas in the early days.
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If you were in a concentration camp with no hope of a life worth living, would you not support the only people fighting back?
Its like constantly tripping someone trying to stand up and then when they get angry you use it as an excuse to beat them.
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You're in favor of genocide for people supporting Hamas? Give your head a fucking shake.
No, I'm just saying a two state solution is clearly no longer posible and Israel warned them to leave.
No, you said, "59% of the “innocent” civilians supports Hamas."
The scare quotes around the word innocent imply you think they're not innocent.
Why can't Israel leave?
Because they won?
Israel has fed the growth of Hamas in an effort to tear apart the Palestinian state. Also, Israel has been annexing Palestinian land, and Hamas always follows this with terrorism. There are no good sides in this conflict and nothing that is happening is a surprise. Civies are fucked.
This. Even Israeli Times recognized this as Bibis fault. Instead of marching into Gaza, Israeli military should get rid of their corrupt politicians.
Arafat chose terror in 2000 instead of the offered Palestinian State - this is the path those Palestinian „Leaders“ chose.
Can you tell the diffrence between Hamas and random Palestinian children?
Ever heard of Child soldiers?
You're a terrible person
Israel’s. They literally started all of this with decades of oppression and violence.
And who’s fault is that?
… the people doing the genocide?
Someone needs to stop these vile fucks. Israel is going to kill millions if left unopposed.
It's insane how with all holocaust talk Israeli have no issues applying the same tactics. Cognative dissonance, religion and nationalism just triumphs over logic huh.
Yup. Who gives a fuck about lives when one side’s imaginary friend says the other’s imaginary friend is wrong
Literally people killing each other over fairy tales.
Oh, and because Israel stole their land.
Considering how much money both Israel and Arab worlds have you'd think the land wouldn't be much of an issue, right? Instead of building the Line UAE could literally save every single Palestinian like that.
The thing is they both want this conflict. Israel - some dirt country in the middle of nowhere - is making so much money through this war and Intel industry that they place right there with world economies. Arab world has an enemy that distracts people from literally being slaves to the most oppresive government and religion. Nasty people all around.
Thinking about this region is just so depressing that I'd simply ignore all news if it was practically possible.
Why should the Palestinians have to leave their own land? So what if the UAE has all of that money
*which are technically the same imaginary friend as Islam also is an Abrahamic religion!
Well, they are God's chosen people. It says so right in the book they wrote
This is bone chilling. I haven't read a headline in a while that's struck the fear of God into me like this. They need to be talked out of it. I worry they're about to do something even worse than the Hamas attack, and that's really saying something.
I worry they’re about to do something even worse than the Hamas attack, and that’s really saying something.
Bro they've already done that with their airstrikes actively engineered to increase, rather than decrease, civilian casualties (I can provide examples if you're curious). Now they're going full Holocaust.
Removed by mod
Don't forget there's a lot of civilians in that 1million+ people.
And given that the average age in Gaza is 18 with 65% being under 24, that's a lot of children as well.
Genocide is bad.
I think your rationality is lost on a fascist
muh everyone who disagrees with me is a fascist
http://booru.soy/_images/901e991aaa724028a3c3421f9628f28a/52901%20-%20SoyBooru.jpg
People who openly applaud genocide are probably a tad bit fashy.
Genocide is bad.
Sure I feel sorry for the civilians but I am not going to support terrorists and none of this would've happened if it weren't for Hamas
Time and time and time again. It has been shown that moral bombing does not work. The sort of organisation that would do what Hamas did would not stop because some of their civilians get hurt or killed. Steamrolling the gaza population to get to hamas will just create an human catastrophe that will likely inspire more violence and instability in the region. As painful as it is de escalation is the right move forward.
It has been shown that moral bombing does not work.
That's why they're invading. They spent the last 20 years using limited amounts of force to respond to Hamas' provocations. 20 years where gaza has the 1967 borders, zero settlements, zero internal checkpoints, Jews evicted at gunpoint; everything that should be required for lasting peace.
And after all that time and effort, they get the elderly, inform, children, toddlers in peaceful communities executed en-mass. Rockets built by tearing up electric, sewage and water utilities and impoverishing it's citizens, fueled by fertilizers stolen from it's citizens, paid with money stolen from it's citizens.
If it's not clear that an Israeli pullback to the 1967 borders won't be effective now, it never will be.
20 years where gaza has the 1967 borders, zero settlements, zero internal checkpoints, Jews evicted at gunpoint; everything that should be required for lasting peace.
You're a fascist idiot if you sincerely believe that, but just so nobody falls for your bullshit, there was an opportunity for peace with Hamas once. It was 2012, where a ceasefire was signed, and one of its condition was the lifting of the blockade. Around that time, the West Bank government and Hamas started working towards creating a unified government and seriously pursuing peace. Everything Israel would've welcomed if it wanted peace. Well what happened?
The Israeli government vehemently opposed the unified government, calling on Mahmoud Abbas to choose between "peace with Israel or peace with Hamas". They also didn't lift the blockade. Naturally, because people don't like being tricked, and really don't like living in open-air prisons, Hamas resumed its attacks and the whole thing fell through.
Everything that should've been required for peace, gone to waste because Israel didn't want peace.
Everything that should've been required for peace, gone to waste because Israel didn't want peace.
Bullshit. Realizing that Hamas was tearing up it's own infrastructure to build rockets and refusing to stop the blockade during. A period of regular rocket attacks doesn't mean it didn't wasn't peace. 2012 was the "we cease you fire" ceasefire era.
"limited amounts of force" 😭😭😭
Still not the fault of the civilians nor is it justified in any way.
It sure is justified "in any way". Not being justified at all would've looked like this:
- Palestinians do nothing
- Israel attacks
We all know this is not how it went down.
As far as I’m concerned the vast majority of the population (considering that over half is quite literally 18 years old and younger) did not do anything. Palestine =/ Hamas.
Is giving civilians a warning to move south somehow not justified? Would you rather have them massacred with no warning?
It is well known that those are the only two options. Also, the problem here is that the task is not possible, according to UN personnel, not me or you. So this feels a lot as just a way to create plausible deniability by saying "we tried hard to spare civilians".
Well yea I’m glad there was at least some sort of warning, but how do you move over 1million people in 24 hours and where? But how does telling civilians to basically leave their homes to be destroyed justified? First they cut off necessities of life now they’re telling them to get lost.
it was always the plan at one time or another.
there is method to their provocation.
You don't feel sorry for them you asshole. You just posted that it was a good thing they died up above.
Right. Killing thousands of civilians just to resolve a conflict that was escalated for some reason from both sides.
There's only one noble side to be on in this, and that's the side of civilians and humanitarians.
If you're ever on the side of someone who is killing civilians, your brain made a left turn somewhere and your side is probably just as valid as the extremists on the other side.
Think about it. The only thing separating you from being the same monster you accuse those other ppl to be is being born on a different clump of earth.
What's wrong with you?
Disgusting. These people had nothing to do with the attack. The actions of a few do not justify the wholesale slaughter of a nation.
Imagine if some proud boys from the US were attacking Canadian civilians, after Canada has been occasionally striking the US and being quite excessive in its use of force.
Then one day Mexico warns Canada that the proud boys might strike this location this week, so Canada pulls its security and guards, the proud boys attack, Canada loudly yells to everyone in the world "OH NO CANADA IS ATTACKING ME DO YOU GUYS SEE THIS SHIT?"
And then Canada proceeds to bomb the absolute fuck out of EVERY city within 10 miles of the border. And then the refugees that are leaving the cities. And then telling them "hey we promise we won't bomb you if you go this route" and then bomb that route. And sends troops into refugee camps in order to decide who is suddenly a proud boy…
The world, as usual when it comes to Israel though, completely loses its minds.
It's like everyone is so afraid of being seen as a nazi, they won't aim even the tiniest criticism toward a government/military. It strikes me as profoundly racist to conflate every Jewish person with the government of Israel, or that somehow Israel represents all jews. Imagine if I suggested Kenya speaks for all black people…
It’s like everyone is so afraid of being seen as a nazi
You got it backwards. It's not that they are afraid, it's that every Nazi thing you do becomes unimportant if you support Israel and yell "look, I'm not a Nazi, because I support Israel".
That's a huge, huge stimulus for support. Now if you've done Nazi things, Israel is your salvation. And if you haven't done Nazi things cause you're afraid, just get friendly with Israel.
They are basically selling modern day's indulgences.
And Israel, of course, endorses that via its puppet diasporan organizations and their moves like "anything but Holocaust is not a genocide, and if you don't agree, you're a Nazi" or "you can't be Nazi if you're Jewish" and, of course, "if you don't support Israel, you are not Jewish".
There's no use in analogising such a complex situation, it utterly fails to capture the situation or the context. You're also welcome to theorise whether or not Israel deliberately sought the deaths of 2000 citizens just to cleanse Gaza but that's a massive claim for someone not privy to classified knowledge.
You’re also welcome to theorise whether or not Israel deliberately sought the deaths of 2000 citizens just to cleanse Gaza but that’s a massive claim for someone not privy to classified knowledge.
Whether it sought that or not, it was awfully unprepared for the attack itself, but amazingly well prepared for all the followup military, diplomatic and propaganda actions. So I'm starting to think this is not a conspiracy theory.
Israel has conscription and it's the size of New Jersey. It's not hard for them to mobilize to whatever border they need to within hours.
True. Takes about 6 hours in a car from the most southern city (Eilat) to the most northern kibbutz in the north (Metula)
Eh, it's harder than you may think. I know they have a working system in place, but for most countries something of that scale is a problem not at all because of their size.
I'm not talking just about mobilization, rather about them quickly mounting the news on the massacre to justify their impending ground operation, and that operation itself being prepared so fast, and a whole US fleet with an aircraft carrier going to support them.
Just seems like something prepared beforehand, and it's politics and diplomacy, so that wouldn't really be a conspiracy theory, again. Maybe the massacre itself was unexpected, but the operation was planned, and the schedule was simply adjusted a bit because of this event.
Crazy that's a country only needs a little time to mobilise when they're a conscription based country. In the words of the IRA Israel only needs to miss once for Hamas to get an attack off. If all it takes for you to "start believing" something is a mere suggestion with no evidence then I have a bridge to sell you and about 90 conspiracy theories as well.
I'm not talking about mobilization, FFS.
In the words of the IRA Israel only needs to miss once for Hamas to get an attack off
What happened is not "missing once".
Further you just imagined something and heroically defeated the fruit of your imagination, I'll leave you to it.
K insane conspiracy theorist
Further you just imagined something and heroically defeated the fruit of your imagination, I’ll leave you to it.
Just go on.
This doesn't make any damn sense. No one elected the proudboys to run the entire gov. The Palestinians did with Hamas. You're acting like it's a small group, when it's not. A majority of Palestinians elected Hamas to represent them, and they support it.
Now you can have the debate of is Israel the cause and is this response equal or if this was all a setup to start the war, but don't act like Hamas is a minority and the people don't support them.
If I understand correctly, Hamas won their majority of parliamentary seats of Gaza's government despite only having 1/3rd of the population casting votes for them.
Source: this YouTube video by Task & Purpose (just found this channel and this video covering the conflict over the last few days seems remarkably unemotional and mostly unbiased.)
https://youtu.be/lbSFJaFuWU0?si=ITFEngYEbsySW1nm&t=28m43s
Also, that election was 17 years ago…
And a very significant portion of the population are children who wouldn't have voted in said election
Yeah but nobody wants to pick up a book.
In 94 we (royal) almost had peace. In '93 The Oslo accords promised Palestinians self governance in 5 years. Israel under Rabin and Abbas with the PLO had an agreement for Palestine to be run by the PA in the mean time.
I dk if it was more Abbas or Arafat but one of the two along with Rabin even pulled Israeli troops out of occupied Palestine and gave it back as part of the peace agreement, marking the most significant step towards peace we will see.
But then Rabin was assassinated in 95 by a zionist. Israel turns over to Netanyahu. Netanyahu refuses to meet with Arafat.
Oslo II fell apart as the US refused to recognize Hamas (who had popular support), preferring the secular Fatah (PA). Whats the point in holding an election if it wont be recognized anyways? Hamas doesn't enter the '96 race.
At some point Netanyahu starts funding Hamas knowing that he can also pit Hamas against the Fatah. Netanyahu will fund Hamas on multiple occasions throughout the 90's and 2000's.
In '97 the US declares Hamas a terrorist group, ending any chance of an election that satisfies the people.
Hamas wins the '06 election
You forgot to mention that, prior to Rabin's assassination, Netanyahu was part of Likud demonstrations that literally called for Rabin's death for making peace.
Oof. A friend of a friend who was studying in Israel cried when Netanyahu was elected and I feel like I increasingly understand why
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://piped.video/lbSFJaFuWU0?si=ITFEngYEbsySW1nm&t=28m43s
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I'm open-source; check me out at GitHub.
Nice to hear a balanced view - thank you!
Not condoning any cruelty, but Hamas had like 70% support in Gaza
Friendly reminder that Israel doesn't really mind bombing "safe routes"
Last 3 times they told people to move they bombed the destination. I'd stay put
Almost like they're concentrating them in some sort of encampment
It's almost like they've created some type of giant penal colony or ghetto. Keeping people imprisoned in large quantities because of their ethnicity, now I see why America supports Israel. They should get them to do shitty jobs for pennies on the dollar while their in there. Remember it's not slavery if it's inside of a prison.
Oh they do. Israel is pretty much dependent on cheap Palestinian labor to keep the country going.
That's going to need a source
I think this is what they are referring to.
yup
That's no longer a conjecture, they have already bombed ambulances and convoys trying to flee the north of the city by the route they explicitly told them to use.
yeah this
I forgot but it's happening now as I said it would https://lemmy.world/post/6757257
Hey what can I search to find this?
What would be the point of this from a non fucked up standpoint? It's not like that would help them get the fuckers who did this. All I can see is that they want to destroy everything if Palestinians somehow could completely comply. The fact that they can't just means Israel wants to kill a bunch of people who are unable to get out.
Israel warned them though. So it's totally fine if they commit genocide.
Based on social media the last week. Your comment isn't obviously sarcastic any more. It's just sad how horrible people are. And so many.
Obviously anyone who hasn't evacuated is aligned with Hamas and is staying to fight. Obviously anyone running once the ground invasion starts is cowardly Hamas soldiers that are running away from the righteous power of god's chosen. Obviously some of the ones fleeing go away, so carpet bombing the rest of the territory we told Tom to go to is necessary to make sure this doesn't happen again.
Big fucking /s
Israelis are narcissist to disgusting levels. They think that showing some morality when it costs them nothing and being absolutely fascist in other cases is how moral societies behave. They think they are a moral society.
And "the world" supports them, while after the bombings of Gaza which have already took place they should have gotten some internationally approved missile strikes on their cities in addition to Hamas ones.
I mean, they really are confident that for such a massacre they can kill 10 times more people and be in their right. I really hope Hezbollah is preparing for something big so that they didn't get the wrong lesson from all this.
Destroy the houses and then take the land. They are speeding up what they have already done since the beginning.
There was a video called something like "IDF destroys Hamas commando's house"
This building was 12 floors. Nobody can convince me some random-ass Hamas grunt owned all that.
Seems it's OK to kill dozens of families as long as you do it from two miles up. This is just revenge.
By the end of next week I doubt Gaza city will even exist.
Didn't they use that same excuse to take out the Gaza Hospital? People are going to be looking at Israel with a new set of eyes when this is over.
I think that's the point
It would require movement of all people out of hideouts. Meaning hostages would be visible by surveillance. So they end up cleaning home by home, minimize civilian victims and those that do remain are either hiding or they have to move civilians through surveillance. Win win.
What would be the point of this from a non fucked up standpoint?
I think the bad and good reasons can be true at the same time. Plenty of others list the bad reasons. For the good reasons:
- it is unlikely Hamas could evacuate its weaponry, rocket stockpiles and other supplies in 24 hours undetected
- so some will be flushed out at which point they can be engaged
- others will remain, so having the civilian population leave - even if not completely - it's the best way to reduce collateral deaths and give Hamas as little time to prepare as possible
- hostages area likely being held in the north, hence the time pressure to separate as many civilians as possible and isolate Hamas
- the crisis would be less of a crisis of the Arab nations actually stepped up to help but none of them want anything to do with Gaza Palestinians…
- finally (up to you if this is a good or bad reason) Israel may well intend to bulldoze every building in North Gaza to deny its use to Hamas and it's obviously safer for the population to not be there when it happens. This may increase the chances of the UN / Egypt creating a viable refugee camp inside the Egyptian border which may well be Israel's end game
Last time Israel invaded they spent significant time destroying tunnels. It's dangerous work that leaves them exposed, so the less people around the better.
The cynic in me says that Israel will now say that anyone left is a legit target/Hamas supporter, even though it's completely infeasible for most of the population to get out in time.
Then after a huge number of deaths, once they control northern Gasa, they will say (because of continuing Hamas attacks) that it's not safe to return. (But mysteriously is for Israeli settlers)
This only makes the Palestinians less likely to leave …
It's going to be a bloodbath. Hopefully afterwards it will have been enough for some kind of pro-peace faction to become popular on both sides… Not holding my breath though.
If this does go bad (worse) I hope that the international community condems both sides, they need to be encouraged (if not forced) to find a peacefull solution.
The far right in Israel, the ones in control, are the most ironic fascists. Bibi has been intent on slaughtering Palestinians for so long, this is all lip service before the mass murder portion of the genocide.
The conspiracy theorist in me still struggles to believe that Hamas (and maybe/probably Iran) wasn't sniffed out by the Mossad or the IDF. These are two groups considered some of the best in the world at what they do and they've been hawking on Hamas for literally longer than most Palestinians have been alive. I absolutely would believe the Israeli far right would martyr a thousand people to get their 2 million.
If this does go bad (worse) I hope that the international community condems both sides, they need to be encouraged (if not forced) to find a peacefull solution.
They never criticize Israel even for its most extreme actions. Right now they seem to be eagerly queueing up to support Israel's siege and attacks on Gaza and send more weapons, no matter how many civilians it kills. So it's hard to be hopeful that international politicians will hold Israel to a measured response.
I guess I need to add: this is not an expression of support for Hamas and their brutal killings. It shouldn't need to be said, but this is the internet.
That's exactly what this is. It's the equivalent of a kid wildly swinging his fists and blaming you if you happen to be in the way.
And western countries should stop supporting Israel blindly.
When you treat an entire nation like livestock and then get surprised they are hating you.
I'll try to stick to facts and not mix my opinions in:
- The area north of Wadi Gaza contains most of Gaza City, and several outlying neighborhoods.
- Best I can tell, the furthest point in the strip is 15km away from that line. Meaning this is requesting civilians to relocate by 5-20km within 24 hours.
- Hamas has built an extensive tunnel network underneath Gaza. These tunnels are constructed with reinforced concrete and are used to house both munitions and operational infrastructure.
- The US has transferred advanced munitions to Israel.
Now for my personal speculation:
- The advanced munitions are bunker busters.
- There is a significant risk of buildings collapsing due to the tunnels underneath being destroyed.
- The intent is to minimize civilian casualties both from the immediate airstrikes and from potential building collapse.
White phosphorus grenades were used by the US in Vietnam to destroy Viet Cong tunnel complexes as they would burn up all oxygen and suffocate the enemy soldiers sheltering inside.
I believe that's considered a war crime these days. Someone correct me if that's wrong.
It should be, but it has been used numerous times in the Gaza strip.
Haven't you gotten the memo? Nothing is a war crime when the "good guy" does it.
you can't call something a crime if you have no capacity to enforce it.
it's just words otherwise
IDF rules of engagement prohibit the use of WP for non smoke purposes. They have court martialed soldiers in the past for intentionally using WP in that manner.
So yes, this is a crime. It also means that it's unlikely to happen at a large scale. I would be surprised if it doesn't happen somewhat and there will for sure be accusations.
The advanced munitions are almost certainly not white phosphorus. Israel already has M258A1 munitions and has had them for a very long time.
Far more likely they are bunker busters intended to destroy underground facilities constructed from reinforced concrete.
In Gaza? What?
That's targeting the people inside the tunnel, not the tunnel itself. Since people are probably supposed to return to these areas eventually, I guess Israel would not consider it sufficient to clear the tunnels temporarily. They probably want to destroy them permanently.
With the city above the tunnels being collateral damage…
When the surviving civilian citizens return, they won't have anything to return to.
That's what worries me too. They are destroying innocent civilian homes.
What makes them think the civilians can relocate within 24 hours but Hamas fighters can't?
If we're going with what the commenter above laid out, then even if Hamas fighters evacuate, their tunnels presumably get collapsed.
Also, I think that might actually be why they gave such a tight deadline. If there isn't enough time for everyone to get out, will Hamas manage to escape, that sort of thing.
God I hate all of this.
I'd guess Hamas would be better organized to escape at short notice than the civilian population. And they seem like the kinds of guys who would prioritize themselves.
I don't think the expectation is that 100% of all civilians will be able to relocate. But at least 600k have already managed to (saw that number on the news and can't find a reference any more…oh well).
I doubt Hamas will manage to relocate large amounts of their ordnance in that timeframe, certainly not with the civilian traffic. At least, not without exposing themselves as a potential target.
So they have the option of moving personnel and mild amounts of equipment, but will need to decide how much of a stand they want to make.
I agree with all of this. The only thing I’d add is that there’s a high possibility of a ground incursion to ensure the destruction of the tunnels.
Given Hamas has no real relevant air defense, they’re just going to use bunker buster type munitions to collapse the tunnels (and the buildings that have entry points). At that point, they can send in ground units to finish. Hamas also has no ground-fighting capability versus armor or artillery, and will be relegated to house-to-house against an enemy that can just call in an artillery or air strike. Hamas also has no path of resupply. It’s pretty much a foregone conclusion at this point.
If they’re playing it smart, Israel wil let the ICRC and other aid groups in as soon as they’ve cleared an area and it’s safe for NGOs to conduct aid.
In terms of long term strategy, Israel will need to do more than simply allow NGOs in to conduct aid. Any power vacuum can be dangerous, and giving direct aid will help minimize the chances that a more violent group than Hamas will sieze the opportunity.
After seeing the video of the high yield munitions last night it also looks like they are also showing our munitions for other countries to see.
Important note to those unfamiliar with the geography when reading this: the part of the Gaza Strip they want evacuated includes the entirety of Gaza City, the most populated city of the Gaza Strip. They are ordering the migration of 1.1 million people into smaller towns and cities to the south, to empty Gaza City. In 24 hours. This would be disastrous even if it was possible. But there are countless factors making it not possible for people to just pick up and leave, much less in 24 hours, including that the primary hospital of the entire Gaza Strip is in the evacuation area, and is full of injured victims of the bombings the IDF has already undertaken. They have also bombed the caravan on primary roadway people are taking out of the city, according to several news sources
They have also bombed the caravan on primary roadway people are taking out of the city, according to several news sources
Fwiw the video that Hamas themselves released shows an explosion that is very much not a missile or artillery. It has a large orange flameball, doesn't leave a crater, leaves windows on the vans intact.
This was most likely a propane IED of which Hamas are known to use. Or a tragic accident (trucks propane tank exploding).
Oh I don't like this, I really, really don't like this. This is giving terrifying vibes
I'm afraid there's gonna be a genocide in Gaza
Merely more genocide
Yes, don't let people forget that this has been an on going genocide in Gaza and this is just Benjamin "needs a tiny moustache" Netanyahu "starting up the ovens" if you wanna get dark with it.
Maybe en masse ethnic cleansing would be a better term here than genocide. The point is, this is going to be an escalation of what was already not pretty.
Maybe en masse ethnic cleansing would be a better term here than genocide.
Aren't those the same thing?
They are going to try and push them into Egypt and take it all.
Netanyahoo is a nationalist fuck, so that's probably what his plan was if it's true he and his military intelligence ignored the planned attack.
Serious question: If the whole point of Israel is to have a country for Jewish people, doesn't that make it a nationalist state by definition?
Zionism is by definition a nationalist ideology, so yes.
And this is where I never agreed with my Jewish inlaws. You aren't allowed to be critical of their ideology because to criticize the state is to criticize Jewish people. A lot of them feel this way.
I would argue the disingenuous ones use the historical events of the Holocaust to allow them carte blanche on their policies since then.
Then again, we aren't allowed to have an adult conversation around that IMHO. Yes there's a lot of complexity there and yes I am oversimplifying things.
That's sad, my relatives from the Jewish side are more adequate. Not sure that's the case now, though.
My Jewish inlaws are very liberal but at the same time I don't think traditional Anglo-Saxons fully understand how tightly embedded their religion is to their identity even if they're not religious. Same can be said of Muslims. That's where the complexity comes in. You're starting a conversation where bringing up aspects of religion and faith are a core aspect of their identity and their country's identity.
Well, my relatives are definitely religious, even if there's nothing "ultra" about them (except for ultracool and ultrasmart maybe, haha). Since being Jewish is a religious thing more than ethnic one, it's obviously very hard to separate these (well, the state of Israel itself was such an attempt at creating a stable secular-Jewish identity).
And what's happening now is not about religion anyway, it's about lots of genocidal actions, which makes people emotional.
Yes they explicitly want an ethnostate.
It makes it an ethnostate, but because of Israeli policies it goes all the way to Apartheid.
That makes it a Theocracy.
They really can't, though. They'd have to give up their cheap, oppressed labor force. Unless they've finally decided to do that, which would be a real change in their position. They're just going to keep squeezing.
They'd still have the West Bank
I suppose so.
If Israel wanted Gaza they would have taken it years ago or never left in the first place.
This all increasingly makes that horrible Hamas attack kinda look like a false flag event
Maybe not false flag but I absolutely believe they let it happen on purpose. Netanyahu and Co have been setting this up for years after creating hamas and making sure they were the only governing body that could exist there.
This is the final step to their plan to "solve" the Gaza strip problem. A sort of… final solution I guess?
We’ve heard the iron dome touted as one of the most sophisticated defense systems for ever… yet the attack happens, and it just… does nothing?
Yeah, no. The IDF let this happen. Israel let their own citizens get slaughtered so they would have an excuse to terrorize Palestinians.
The Iron Dome isn't magic and intercepting rockets is not a fully solved problem. It's usually able to intercept something like 90% of incoming rockets that it attempts to intercept. Part of its design is an ability to evaluate how dangerous a rocket is by judging where it is going to land, and it ignores those that it expects not to land in populated areas. During the crisis in May 2021 there were about 4,000 rockets launched over the course of a week, and the Dome managed about 90% of those. 400 rockets hitting targets is obviously still a lot of damage. But the thing is, the difficulty of intercepting each individual rocket goes up if you have to deal with several at once, and this current round of rockets may have been as many as 5,000 in one day. If Iron Dome takes x seconds to deal with one rocket and each rocket flies for 5x seconds, then launching 10 rockets at once means that the Dome just hasn't got time to deal with them all before they land.
That doesn't say anything one way or the other about foul play. But it's not weird that an advanced anti-rocket system was overwhelmed; that's just one of the known ways to defeat a system like that.
I'll agree qith the other user, you chose a poor example here.
This just seems unlikely to me. But I do believe the Iranians funded and assisted with the planning of the attack.
I get the feeling that Hamas was maybe even a little surprised by how successful the attack was. Which has brought about a reprisal even they didn’t see coming.
Why would Iran do that? What do they gain?
Influence over an unstable region
Their regional rival Saudi Arabia is in talks with Israel to make an alliance with them and the u.s. in exchange for military aid. With recent events they now have to either
- Give up on the alliance and the military aid and getting all the latest in military tech.
- Continue forth with the alliance and make themselves look like a bootlicking puppet of the u.s. in front of the entire Arab world.
Funding Hamas is popular domestically in Iran.
They did not need to, they created a situation where this was bound to happen, and then they just followed the mantra: Never let a good crisis go to waste.
Even if it is, speculating about that without any solid evidence just makes your argument seem weak imo.
Bad things happen and there are those who are more than willing to take advantage of those events. Doesn't matter if its tsunamis or genocides: there's people looking to exploit the situation for their own gain and have the power to do so at the suffering of huge numbers of people. That doesn't mean resort business owners are making artificial earthquakes.
K thanks mom, but what's for dinner
Ding ding ding
After the debacle with the "beheaded babies", I'm going through and evaluating every claim that's been made. The mistake that was made before the Iraq War - the public failing to hold the government's feet to the fire over claims about weapons, war crimes, etc., to make sure they had a basis in reality - unfolded into somewhere near a million deaths. That kind of failure can't ever be acceptable.
