Can we finally fucking admit that Israel is commiting genocide?
Reasonable people came to that conclusion 30+ years ago.
Fuck Bibi. Fuck Hamas. Fuck the fucking fuckers, wherever they may fuck.
30? The nakba was in 1948. Was pretty obvious already then.
Every reasonable person must admit that. Just like every reasonable person must codemn Hamas terrorism. But people like picking teams, and appearently that makes doing both very hard.
I just want the senseless violence to stop. Problem is, one side has advanced military technology and is backed by most of the world's most powerful countries. The other does not. If Israel wants peace, Israel needs to take the first step towards that goal.
True, but I am also tired of explanations for Hamas terrorism becoming its justification. Not by you, obviously, but look around. This is what I meant: We can acknowledge that Israel is an apartheit state and has become fascist and did horrible things to palestinians over the last decades. We do not have to wonder that there are terrorists. At the same time, that does not mean that Israelis "deserve" it or that terrorism is inevitable like a force of nature.
Explanation =/= justification. But exactly this is getting abused by antisemites.
I have read some horrible comments over the last couple of days. From accusing me of "hurr durr both sides" to "there is no such thing as an innocent Israeli" (thanks hasanabi twitch chatter, not banned for this) while hundreds were slaughtered at a festival.
I think you missed the 1990s and 2000s when Israel tried that. Repeatedly. Then the said f it and implemented a blockade.
would wait until this is independently verified before you drawing this card. Because this is coming from Hamas directly and at the moment there is also speculation that it was a rocket from them itself. But I would hold my conclusion back before more informations are available.
Still waiting on confirmation of the beheaded babies too.
That’s was confirmed a few days ago.
Was it? Or is this the babies that were burned to death news? Neither is good, but technically the later still isn't evidence of the former nor does it prove intent (beheading 40 babies is pretty hard to do accidentally, and uncontrolled fire burning two babies can very much be an accident).
Either way, Hamas did kill civilians, including babies (pretty sure there was one that was shot in addition to the two burned), which is terrible and in no way should they be given any sort of pass just because Israel has previously committed acts of violence. But its still fair to call out fabricated news meant to push for mass killings of civilians, including children and babies.
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confirmed
as lies.
You have a cite for that?
That was already confirmed, including photos. Only, at least some of the photos were originally only shown to selected politicians, diplomats and journalists. Our (czech) ambassador confirmed seeing them, and seeing photos of burned babies as well.
Some people claimed that these photos were later (officially) made public, but I sure as hell am not going to go looking for them.
edit: actual sources in a message below
That was already confirmed, including photos.
[Citation needed]
I went looking and there isn't much being returned short of 5-6 days ago, but I've seen no proof that it happened, only people walking back that they never really saw photos and were taking Israeli spokes-heads at face value. Here's a Boston globe opinion piece from today that still claims the information is/was unverified.
Edit: from 5 days ago: Israeli official says government cannot confirm babies were beheaded in Hamas attack
Our ambassador said this in an interview (machine translated, I'm too lazy):
There is even talk of beheading children.
Unfortunately, this is confirmed information, the Israeli government and military have pictures of this, which are really horrible, really horrible.
Have you seen them yourself?
Yes, I have seen the pictures.The same was said by Jerusalem Post.
And Here is a tweet by Margot Haddad, a french journalist, editor of La Chaîne Info TV station, who also claims to have seen and cross-checked the photos.
For me personally this is enough to say "confirmed".
That's interesting, considering Israeli government officials wouldn't confirm the veracity of the photos, and after the US Whitehouse made the same claims, they were also walked back because they saw news reports and not photographic evidence. Same with multiple news orgs.
Given the amount of walking back and refusal to verify, along with going radio silent about it, means this is a BS story in my mind. If this had really happened, Israel wouldn't be able to stop themselves from plastering it across every news feed that would run them as evidence of hamas' barbarism.
Isn't that three three babies, two of which burned and one was shot? Now don't get me wrong that's still horrible, but "forty babies were beheaded" is… yeah.
I know nothing about the "40 babies" claim, but our ambassador, who to me is a completely trustworthy person, explicitly said that she was shown photos of beheaded babies by Israeli officials.
Are you the Hasbara supervisor? What a load of fucking shit.
I linked sources in a comment below the one you're replying to. It is possible that all 3 are mistaken, but since 2 of them are non-israeli and as I know not particularly biased, and you're still accusing me of being a propagandist, kindly take a walk and stop posting.
https://twitter.com/MyLordBebo/status/1714359458967466235
Hamas doesn’t have JDAMs. Hmmm
EDIT: Fixed link
The IDF claims this was caused by a mid-fire of Hamas rockets. Both sides have provided the exact same amount of evidence, zero. Maybe wait before hoping back on the anti-Israel bandwagon.
Hamas put their headquarters in the hospital. That’s on hamas bro.
Got any proof for that? Sounds like some rehashed bullshit from the last time Israel bombed hospitals, schools, etc.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Shifa_Hospital
Check it. Like it sucks but…
That is a different hospital. The hospital that was bombed was al-Alhi according to AP News.
It is managed by the Episcopal Church.
Does anybody have any idea how to evaluate Israel's claim that it wasn't them, that it was a Palestinian rocket towards Israel which went wrong and hit the hospital?
Other than just assuming that whatever side you don't like is lying?
I honestly don't have a heuristic to evaluate that other than "the side I trust less must be lying about it"
And I'd like a better way to find out the truth than that
The Anglican community and Anglican owners of the hospital and Doctors without Borders operating in Gaza have denied Israel's claim. They reiterated that it was an Israeli attack on the hospital
Does that help? As an appeal to authority, I'm not convinced. Anglicans aren't known for much more than constant infighting, definitely not for missile strike origin identification.
That could be something. Give they any reason, point to any evidence? I'd like to see how they come to their conclusion.
They would have no way to know, so that's not really any evidence at all either way.
Are you surprised that the state that shamelessly announced it has cut off food, water, and electricity on 2.5 million people, of which more than 1 million are children, has bombed a hospital? 9 days without a drop of water. The state that bombed the corridors of international humanitarian aid?
There's many videos posted on telegram and Twitter comparing the sound of the missile from footage with the sound from US made JDAM missile.
There’s many videos posted on telegram and Twitter comparing the sound of the missile from footage with the sound from US made JDAM missile.
JDAMs are guided bombs, not missiles or rockets.
Israel also claimed Hamas beheaded 40 people and they were exposed for their lie, Israel is lying, they bombed the hospital.
Yeah, there is a longer video floating around Twitter that shows the barrage being fired, followed by an something midair, then a small explosion at the hospital followed by a bigger one.
I would particularly advice against trusting videos circulating on Twitter as a source for anything at all in this conflict. It seems to be a complete mess.
The best thing to do is probably to wait for experts to do their job, and for reputable news outlets to report on it.
Until then, keep in mind that we're in a position where both explanations are plausible. Both sides are targeting civilians. Who is to blame for this specific attack doesn't change the fact that both parties to the conflict are awful, and that civilians pay the cost.
I mean, one side targets civilians and sees civilian casualties as achievements. Another side targets military infrastructure located inside civilian territory, and sees civilian casualties as collateral damage. Saying both sides are the same is either ignorance, or malicious misinformation.
I'm sure the victims and their families will be pleased to hear that they were just collateral damage!
People have noted that the time stamp on that video is a half hour before the hospital was hit.
The only way to confirm is to find search the wreckage.
The remains would tell you what hit the hospital.
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It seems you are not been paying attention these last few decades
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“500 hamas militants*”
“B-but most of them were children, elderly, and the infirm…”
“Yap, that’s radicalism for ya.”
In all honesty, the last three I backed over with my car. Luckily, they turned out to be Hamas Militants.
I would wait for independently verified sources yet, as this information is coming straight from the Hamas itself.
AFAIK this is the initial estimate, so it's only gonna go up.
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I see 6 upvotes and 0 downvotes on the original comment and 3 up and 1 downvote (me) on this comment. I downvoted comments talking about votes. Guessing kbin just doesn't count votes from defederated instances, so its probably all downvotes from the same problematic instance…
Kbin doesn't display federated downvotes (if it even pulls them). Any downvotes you see on kbin came from kbin.
Ahh, that explains why the upvote to downvote ratios are always so large. They pull all upvotes, but only kbin downvotes. Interesting choice.
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😂🖕
The IDF claims this was caused by a mid-fire of Hamas rockets. Both sides have provided the exact same amount of evidence, zero. Maybe wait before hoping back on the anti-Israel bandwagon.
Maybe wait before hoping back on the anti-Israel bandwagon.
I'm just anti-apartheid and anti-nationalism, which bandwagon should I hop on?
Hating genocide is such a bandwagon…
They cut off food, water, and electricity to the entire civilian population, and aren’t like 50% of them children?
I'm not convinced one way or another about where the rocket came from, but I found this quote in an AP story while looking into it:
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu sought to put the blame on Hamas for Israel’s retaliatory attacks and the rising civilian casualties in Gaza. “Not only is it targeting and murdering civilians with unprecedented savagery, it’s hiding behind civilians,” he said.
That's some big "babe, why you gotta make me hit you?" energy right there.
Maybe Hamas should stop storing their munitions in hospitals. Just sayin'.
It's really easy to claim that's what they're doing. Got any evidence?
Any even if it were true, how many civilians is it OK to murder for the sake of taking out some weapons?
Our german news station is reporting that a) the informations are from the Hamas Ministry of Health itself, also briefly stated in this report but without naming it 🤔, and b) at the moment there is speculation that it was actually a rocket from the Hamas but this not independently verified yet.
I've seen the same speculation. The video in question is here. I'm skeptical because it looks like the area has power, but then some people are saying the area with power is actually Ashkelon and Gaza is the dark section. But then this video also apparently made the rounds in 2022? There's a lot of disinformation going on.
Reuters and the AP are officially reporting it as an Israeli airstrike, though, so until we hear anything else, I'm believing them.
Yeah, Hamas claimed it was an Israeli missile. Israel claims that it was a failed rocket launch by Hamas.
I don't think we actually know more than that, and everything else is people speculating for their team. But in the end, we need more information on this as statement stands against statement.
edit:
A note from the Guardian:
The Israeli military reportedly said an initial investigation suggested the explosion was caused by a failed Hamas rocket launch, but the scale of the blast appears to be outside the militant group’s capabilities.
Reading these comments that's exactly what I was thinking. Did Hamas ever have the ability to destroy a hospital with a single missile?
No, how would they get such a large munition?
German Tagesschau is pretty accurate and their also update news regulary if they got new informations, until that most of their news in the liveblog have the "not independently verified" claim.
They updated their stories.
That's not the headline though
Full headline is "Israel-Hamas war: At least 500 people killed in hospital bombing in Gaza, Palestinian officials claim", which is very different from the misleading title written by OP, which also breaks rule #1 about the post format of this community. OP maliciously added his own opinion to the title despite there being two versions, one by Hamas accusing Israel and one by Israel accusing Hamas.
In what way did OP maliciously deceive in the post title? It seems exactly the same, just with the addition that it was an Israeli attack which caused it, with strong evidence that points to that being the case.
Tell me you didn't read the article without telling me you didn't read the article.
ahem
WAR CRIME!!!
Israel: Charge us, then…
…alright, carrying on.
If Israel did that, and don't see what motive Hamas would have, then Netanyahu should be arrested if he sets foot in the EU.
The counterclaim is that it was a failed rocket launch. You don't exactly need a motive for that.
The IDF claims this was caused by a mid-fire of Hamas rockets. Both sides have provided the exact same amount of evidence, zero. Maybe wait before hoping back on the anti-Israel bandwagon.
Are they too stupid to realize they are giving Hamas exactly what they want? This does nothing to further Israel's security, and in fact probably creates more terrorists. I can only conclude that is in fact also exactly what the government of Israel wants too. Fuck.
If they instigate war, they open up their ability to land grab afterwards. They know they’ll win any conflict with Palestine; they don’t care about the lives on either side.
Gauging the mental state of the population to see how much force is needed is pretty difficult. See here:
Of course, blowing up hospitals is never good.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://piped.video/B4H95DlII2s
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I'm open-source; check me out at GitHub.
Hamas was created by Israel to snuff out it's competition like the PLO. The Israeli far right and Hamas are in symbiosis
Personally I'd wait for a while, because at this moment Hamas claims Israel attacked a hospital and Israel claims Hamas had a failed rocket launch that destroyed a hospital. Both are plausible, and I haven't seen any confirmation of either variant from a 3rd party so far (might have missed something though).
If it is Israel, it's a huge fuck up.
edit: A video supposedly taken from Al Jazeera Arabic livestream seems to most clearly show the supposed rocket misfiring, and it looks pretty damning. If that's real, I hope the media who immediately called it Israel's fault based on just the word of Hamas get called out, but I'm not holding my breath yet - the situation is a clusterfuck and there is definitely a lot of disinformation being spread.
Look at the time stamp of the video. It's a half hour before the hospital was hit.
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Yeah, they realize it. That's why they didn't target the hospital. It's a misfired rocket by Islamic Jihad
False news, already been disproven by analysts.
The IDF claims this was caused by a mid-fire of Hamas rockets. Both sides have provided the exact same amount of evidence, zero. Maybe wait before hoping back on the anti-Israel bandwagon.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
A spokesman for the ministry said in a statement: "Initial estimates indicate that between 200 and 300 martyrs were killed in the bombing that targeted Baptist Hospital in Gaza city."
The militant group said: "The horrific massacre carried out by the Zionist occupation in the Gaza City's Al-Ahly Hospital which left hundreds of casualties, most of them displaced families, patients, children and women, is a crime of genocide that once again reveals the ugly face of this criminal enemy and its fascist and terrorist government.
The explosion follows local reports of deaths and injuries at the al Ahli Arab Baptist Hospital, in northern Gaza.
The Anglican-run hospital was hit by Israeli rocket fire on 14 October leaving four members of staff wounded, according to a statement from Archbishop of Canterbury Justin Welby.
Earlier, Israel's military said more civilian deaths in the territory were "inevitable", claiming that Hamas fighters were using Palestinians as cover.
More than one million Palestinians were warned to move south through Gaza at the weekend by the IDF, ahead of an expected ground invasion.
The original article contains 385 words, the summary contains 177 words. Saved 54%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!
What a fucking disgraceful mess.
"It wasn't me" -Israel and Shaggy
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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Shifa_Hospital
Please check this first.
This is not that hospital.
Oh. Nothing to see here. Israel has a right this defend itself from terrorists.
Pretty sure sarcasm, but unfortunately I feel like this comment could easily be made seriously.
Well bush and biden and all of the Israeli lobby wishes to capitalize on the 40 babies story as genocide so take of it what you wish.
WTF? I thought they came to a cease fire recently 😞
there's been uhh a few developments in the last 10 days
There was supposed to be one yesterday to allow humanitarian aid in, but I don't think that ever happened.
