Independent xenosophonts do have political rights and means of production are collectively owned and managed. It’s only florets that don’t have political rights. In some cases florets have say over means of production as well, at least the ones that actually do any production as many don’t work at all. Affini can also be florets. Again I don’t think you have actually read that much HDG. You could argue that florets are an underclass. However most florets are also volunteers and have some very explicit rights in the story. In fact Affini are bound by those rights to look after florets more than they look after independents or each other. I really don’t think you can compare the Affini to Israel who are doing a genocide given the Affini avoid killing at all costs and respect local languages and even traditions provided they aren’t harmful.
Yes the Affini compact would not at all work in real life and anyone who tried it would end up committing some form of abuse. I am not trying to argue it’s realism here. You are however completely and seemingly deliberately ignoring what it actually is and how it’s described by the various authors.
I’m not talking about florets, I’m talking about everyone who isn’t Affini. No civilization is permitted to self-govern without Affini interference.
Once the Affini Compact becomes aware of a civilization, their domestication is inevitable. Generally speaking, while there are no civilizations more advanced than the Compact, even such precursor cultures would be unable to resist the Affini indefinitely
When a species accepts the Compact, they tend to have much more of a say in the running of their society afterward — but even these cultures will be altered by domestication, and the Compact will still be there with a firm hand on the wheel afterward, just in case. Species that resist domestication, like Terrans did, don’t get much of a say in how things are run — a species that fights back needs much more correction, from the Affini perspective, than one that willingly joins the Compact.
Basically, you’re free to self-govern as a vassal of the compact as long as you do what you’re told and don’t want independence. That’s not freedom. That’s not political rights. That’s abuse. Guess what, black slaves who did what their masters told them were treated better too, but that doesn’t mean they had freedom.
I have little experience with HDG, but I’m afraid you have little understanding of what communism and freedom mean, and that’s far more important. So far we have not disagreed on the facts of the fiction. We’ve only disagreed on the facts of political systems and ethics.
I do in fact believe the Affini are entirely benevolent. They are also wrong. They are monsters who mean well.
Yes they are an imperialist empire. I never said otherwise. What I was saying is they are not fascist nor are they capitalist. They aren’t necessarily feudalist either.
As for political rights: you have as much political freedom as you do in current “democracies”. Which is to say as an individual you can’t change much at all. Take the USA for example, individuals don’t choose the laws they live under, states can make some laws but are limited in their power and self-governence. If a state tried to leave they probably wouldn’t be allowed to and it would probably lead to civil war and them being recaptured. That’s basically what the Terran Protectorate is in the Affini compact. It’s a state in the larger compact with limited self-governance. Terrans can vote in larger elections in the larger Affini compact much like they can vote for things in the Terran protectorate. Arguably they are more free under the compact than they were in the Terran accord or current day society as the Affini compact does not have rich oligarchs who control everything. Means of production are owned by both Affini and independents.
Forcing other states to become their vassels is definitely an imperialist thing to do, but in this case it doesn’t really remove the rights of the individuals only the rights of governments. I think that’s an important thing to understand.
I would argue that the possibility of forced Domestication as well as all the psychic manipulation is the real serious issue with the compact in terms of freedom. The privileges afforded to only Affini such as the ability to take florets are another serious issue. You could very well call those things abuse. In terms of government and economics they are pretty free by comparison.
Means of production are owned by both Affini and independents.
Only to the extent permitted by the Affini. You must understand, in Medieval Europe, most men over 30 had practical ownership of their means of production. Take a farmer as an example. As a young man you would work as a farmhand on an older farmer’s land, and your future wife-to-be would work as a milkmaid. Once you’ve both completed your apprenticeships, you would marry, and you would receive a dowry from your wife’s family which would permit you to inherit or establish your own farm. The land would be yours to work, and you would profit by your own labours and those of your family.
But the land would also be owned by the local lord, in much the same way that a modern corporate farm “owns” land that is also owned by the local government. The local baron would extract taxes from you as tithe for allowing you to work his land. You would be the only peasant permitted to work it; you would have sovereign domain with respect to other peasants, but the threat of state violence would ensure your efforts benefitted your superior.
The land and tools afforded to “independent” vassals of the Affini compact are permitted to be used with a great deal of freedom, but the threat of violence is implicit in the arrangement. The Affini are master. That is why I say the Affini follow a feudalist economic model. The Affini have a monopoly on the use of legitimised violence. De Facto, even if not De Jure, they own everything. The Compact is about as “communist” as the USSR, or modern China.
Okay modern China I get, but the USSR? You don’t think the USSR were a socialist republic at any point? What kind of communist even are you?
You argue the Culture are communist but the compact isn’t based on a monopoly of violence yet I am sure if you tried to use violence that the Minds didn’t agree with they would have you stopped in short order. Don’t they have something called a slap drone in the culture for people who do things that are unpopular? Since they don’t have laws it’s not like you get a court trial even. I would argue it’s worse than the Affini which at least pretends to have procedures and rules. Minds can basically do whatever they want provided the other Minds approve.
An anarcho-communist. You won’t find recorded history of communism in empires. You’ll find it in places like Catalonia and Australia.
Don’t they have something called a slap drone in the culture for people who do things that are unpopular?
Yeah, if you knife murder someone, the Culture will send a drone to make sure it doesn’t happen again. You won’t be able to knife murder anyone again, it’ll use a force field to stop your knife. It’s like a reverse bodyguard. But you won’t get a slap drone for breaking social norms that don’t actually harm anyone. Incest is perfectly permitted, for example. If you want to grab a ship and go adventuring, or set up your own little civilisation somewhere, or establish a consensual death boxing ring, that’s all allowed.
Masaq’ Orbital is a completely engineered environment, an artificial world. And it has a badlands, because Masaq’ Hub likes inhospitable places. They’re fun for going camping. One day, a human decided the Badlands should be covered in pylons. He asked Masaq’ Hub to build the pylons, and Hub said no. So he started talking to other people and asking them to help him build pylons. They got some manufacturing equipment and just started plopping down poles and stringing rope between them, and they made wind-powered cable cars to traverse the pylons. Other people got quite offended on Hub’s behalf, and started removing the pylons. It was a whole drama. There was a lot of debate. Eventually, everyone agreed that the pylons could stay, but Hub wouldn’t have to maintain them. So the pylon project was finished, but now, hundreds of years later, the pylons are in a state of disrepair. Some people decide to adventure across the pylons in one of those cable cars. Hub tells them it’s very dangerous, and points out the lines which are known to be unsafe. And one day the pylons will all be gone.
Also, you can like, leave. And there are lots of other civilisations the Culture has no interest in conquering. You can go live with them, and choose to renounce or keep your Culture citizenship as you please. You can ask for a ship and a matter replicator, and just fuck off to the edge of known space.
The Culture has a limited tolerance for intolerance. The Compact has a limited tolerance for independence. That’s the difference.
Independent xenosophonts do have political rights and means of production are collectively owned and managed. It’s only florets that don’t have political rights. In some cases florets have say over means of production as well, at least the ones that actually do any production as many don’t work at all. Affini can also be florets. Again I don’t think you have actually read that much HDG. You could argue that florets are an underclass. However most florets are also volunteers and have some very explicit rights in the story. In fact Affini are bound by those rights to look after florets more than they look after independents or each other. I really don’t think you can compare the Affini to Israel who are doing a genocide given the Affini avoid killing at all costs and respect local languages and even traditions provided they aren’t harmful.
Yes the Affini compact would not at all work in real life and anyone who tried it would end up committing some form of abuse. I am not trying to argue it’s realism here. You are however completely and seemingly deliberately ignoring what it actually is and how it’s described by the various authors.
I’m not talking about florets, I’m talking about everyone who isn’t Affini. No civilization is permitted to self-govern without Affini interference.
Basically, you’re free to self-govern as a vassal of the compact as long as you do what you’re told and don’t want independence. That’s not freedom. That’s not political rights. That’s abuse. Guess what, black slaves who did what their masters told them were treated better too, but that doesn’t mean they had freedom.
I have little experience with HDG, but I’m afraid you have little understanding of what communism and freedom mean, and that’s far more important. So far we have not disagreed on the facts of the fiction. We’ve only disagreed on the facts of political systems and ethics.
I do in fact believe the Affini are entirely benevolent. They are also wrong. They are monsters who mean well.
Yes they are an imperialist empire. I never said otherwise. What I was saying is they are not fascist nor are they capitalist. They aren’t necessarily feudalist either.
As for political rights: you have as much political freedom as you do in current “democracies”. Which is to say as an individual you can’t change much at all. Take the USA for example, individuals don’t choose the laws they live under, states can make some laws but are limited in their power and self-governence. If a state tried to leave they probably wouldn’t be allowed to and it would probably lead to civil war and them being recaptured. That’s basically what the Terran Protectorate is in the Affini compact. It’s a state in the larger compact with limited self-governance. Terrans can vote in larger elections in the larger Affini compact much like they can vote for things in the Terran protectorate. Arguably they are more free under the compact than they were in the Terran accord or current day society as the Affini compact does not have rich oligarchs who control everything. Means of production are owned by both Affini and independents.
Forcing other states to become their vassels is definitely an imperialist thing to do, but in this case it doesn’t really remove the rights of the individuals only the rights of governments. I think that’s an important thing to understand.
I would argue that the possibility of forced Domestication as well as all the psychic manipulation is the real serious issue with the compact in terms of freedom. The privileges afforded to only Affini such as the ability to take florets are another serious issue. You could very well call those things abuse. In terms of government and economics they are pretty free by comparison.
Only to the extent permitted by the Affini. You must understand, in Medieval Europe, most men over 30 had practical ownership of their means of production. Take a farmer as an example. As a young man you would work as a farmhand on an older farmer’s land, and your future wife-to-be would work as a milkmaid. Once you’ve both completed your apprenticeships, you would marry, and you would receive a dowry from your wife’s family which would permit you to inherit or establish your own farm. The land would be yours to work, and you would profit by your own labours and those of your family.
But the land would also be owned by the local lord, in much the same way that a modern corporate farm “owns” land that is also owned by the local government. The local baron would extract taxes from you as tithe for allowing you to work his land. You would be the only peasant permitted to work it; you would have sovereign domain with respect to other peasants, but the threat of state violence would ensure your efforts benefitted your superior.
The land and tools afforded to “independent” vassals of the Affini compact are permitted to be used with a great deal of freedom, but the threat of violence is implicit in the arrangement. The Affini are master. That is why I say the Affini follow a feudalist economic model. The Affini have a monopoly on the use of legitimised violence. De Facto, even if not De Jure, they own everything. The Compact is about as “communist” as the USSR, or modern China.
Okay modern China I get, but the USSR? You don’t think the USSR were a socialist republic at any point? What kind of communist even are you?
You argue the Culture are communist but the compact isn’t based on a monopoly of violence yet I am sure if you tried to use violence that the Minds didn’t agree with they would have you stopped in short order. Don’t they have something called a slap drone in the culture for people who do things that are unpopular? Since they don’t have laws it’s not like you get a court trial even. I would argue it’s worse than the Affini which at least pretends to have procedures and rules. Minds can basically do whatever they want provided the other Minds approve.
An anarcho-communist. You won’t find recorded history of communism in empires. You’ll find it in places like Catalonia and Australia.
Yeah, if you knife murder someone, the Culture will send a drone to make sure it doesn’t happen again. You won’t be able to knife murder anyone again, it’ll use a force field to stop your knife. It’s like a reverse bodyguard. But you won’t get a slap drone for breaking social norms that don’t actually harm anyone. Incest is perfectly permitted, for example. If you want to grab a ship and go adventuring, or set up your own little civilisation somewhere, or establish a consensual death boxing ring, that’s all allowed.
Masaq’ Orbital is a completely engineered environment, an artificial world. And it has a badlands, because Masaq’ Hub likes inhospitable places. They’re fun for going camping. One day, a human decided the Badlands should be covered in pylons. He asked Masaq’ Hub to build the pylons, and Hub said no. So he started talking to other people and asking them to help him build pylons. They got some manufacturing equipment and just started plopping down poles and stringing rope between them, and they made wind-powered cable cars to traverse the pylons. Other people got quite offended on Hub’s behalf, and started removing the pylons. It was a whole drama. There was a lot of debate. Eventually, everyone agreed that the pylons could stay, but Hub wouldn’t have to maintain them. So the pylon project was finished, but now, hundreds of years later, the pylons are in a state of disrepair. Some people decide to adventure across the pylons in one of those cable cars. Hub tells them it’s very dangerous, and points out the lines which are known to be unsafe. And one day the pylons will all be gone.
Also, you can like, leave. And there are lots of other civilisations the Culture has no interest in conquering. You can go live with them, and choose to renounce or keep your Culture citizenship as you please. You can ask for a ship and a matter replicator, and just fuck off to the edge of known space.
The Culture has a limited tolerance for intolerance. The Compact has a limited tolerance for independence. That’s the difference.