Chanting ‘from the river to the sea’ would be criminalised under proposed state law
Albert Einstein’s letter to the NY Times was 100% correct about Israel and Palestine. Is the German government going to trash his name too?
Based on that time 3200+ years ago when they stole it.
I wonder if they’ve the gall to jail somebody for wearing a t-shirt which reads:
Palestine & Israel have EQUAL right to exist.
?
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And let me guess, the proposed law does not criminalize anyone saying “Between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty” (Likud’77) or denying Palestinians the right to self-determination (there is no such thing as a state’s right to exist under international law, contrary to the very real right to self-determination, enshrined in the UN Charter, that Germany is a signatory to).
These jewish-supremacist idiots are fuelling anti-Semitism, while propping up a genocidal apartheid regime.
Okay Germany, but this time they might deserve some of the hate.
So called right to exist.
* proposed law, which likely won’t pass.
But, true enough, the proposition is insane.
Supporting any Palestinian group in Germany in public will get you arrested. All Palestinian charities are banned due to links to ‘terrorism’ (aka the actual government of the gaza strip which any organization would have to work with in order to do things, you know, like how all states work.)
Supporting any Palestinian group in Germany in public will get you arrested
My auntie just visited and left 30 minutes ago. She participates basically in any Pro-Palestine protest in Frankfurt and vincinity. She was never arrested.
My father, who went to his last demonstrations some 45 years ago even participated in some Pro Palestine protests. He was not arrested.
My mother wrote to the government of Hesse like every other week to take down the Israel flag in front of the government seat, and, believe it or not, she was not arrested.
The climate around supporting Palestine in Germany is bad. Many people get arrested and that is wrong. But claims like “showing support for any Palestinian group will get you arrested” are not true (yet).
One of the big tests whether ‘free speech’ means something or whether Germany is a vassal state is still in the juidical system (obviously source in German). I hope once the constitutional court rules, it’ll be on the right side of history.
The idea that people breaking the law do not always get caught means there is no law is ridiculous, especially when you state people are being arrested for it.
‘not getting caught’ as in being in a protest accompanied by a lot of policemen? They don’t go to a dark alley and whisper “free Palestine” in order to not “get caught” 😅
There’s no law prohibiting to support Palestine. As you can see in the source I linked before. There are very controversial takes about what crosses the line. The famous “from the river to the sea” being one of it. People who are brought to court for that half go free, half get sentenced. That shows that even within “the system” it is very unclear. Thus, it’s about time to get a ruling by the highest court. I guess one day that will even go to the European Court, and I anticipate that it will rule in favor of free speech.
And guess who’s arrested and brutalized by the police? PoC, because the police is racist, and voicing support for Palestine gives them a reason - like “I heard those PoC say ‘death to all Jews’, so let’s beat them up. If they defend themselves we bring them to court for resistance, all my police buddies heard it as wall”. But not because there’s some distinguished law against “supporting Palestine”.
Can’t speak for Germany but in the United Kingdom it’s Palestine Action that has been officially declared a terrorist organisation because they stormed an army base. That means it’s illegal to protest for Palestine Action, but you can still protest in support of Palestine.
Fuck the speech police
Israel: a country so weak and pathetic it controls peoples speech.
The tought police will get you next
That’s just what total democracy looks like. Completely normal. In Germany, some political parties (left and right) are also banned to make sure they can’t ever be elected.
Germany is not a total democracy, whatever that’s supposed to mean.
And so far there have only been three parties that have been been banned since 1945 and those are
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NSDAP by the Allies in 1945 for obvious reasons
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SRP in 1952 because they were a successor party of the NSDAP
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KPD in 1956 because they wanted to abolish democracy in favour of a soviet system
I wonder what the legal basis for this is? Is there a constitutional provision that allows banning of parties that seek to end democracy?
If so, I wonder how that would work for someone that wanted to end electoral democracy, but not for any malevolent purpose? For example, instead advocated for a different or non-electoral democratic system, but still with noble intentions? For instance, under the German system, could a party lawfully argue to a system based on sortition?
In sortition, public offices are assigned by lottery, as we handle jury selection today. It doesn’t guarantee the most competent leader will be elected, but elections also clearly don’t select for the most competent leader. The main advantage of sortition is that, unlike elections, it doesn’t select for the most power-hungry and psychopathic members of society. It’s long been said that no one who actually wants power should be given it, and sortition is a way of solving that problem.
Could someone in Germany advocate for moving to sortition, or would that violate some constitutional provision meant to protect electoral democracy?
Given that Germany’s democratic state supports genocide and bans anti-genocide speech, I think the KPD were probably right.
I’d rather have a damaged democracy than a totalitarian regime.
What you mean is “I would prefer to have a high degree of personal freedom for myself while my government supports genocide of others, rather than have less personal freedom while my government doesn’t support genocide.”
Apropos of nothing, Nazi Germany wasn’t a bad place to live if you weren’t one of the targeted groups and if you stayed in line and didn’t espouse the wrong politics. Until the war came home and the bombs started falling, anyway.
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People who are now Israelis have a right to exist, just like everybody else.
The nation of Israel has no right to exist, same as all other nations.
Funny how racialized politics, autoritarianist tendencies and even a certain view of nation states as more important than people, did not stop when NAZI Germany was defeated and are still very much alive and acted on in Germany - the symbols such as swasticas and goose-stepping aren’t displayed anymore but the fundational aspects of the NAZI view of the world, of the value of people and of the validity of the use of force to suppress ideas the powerful dislike, are still alive and well in Germany.
The nation of Israel has no right to exist, same as all other nations.
I don’t know about this as a blanket declaration. I’m no moral philosopher, but if I can imagine Trump saying this in a speech announcing the annexation of Canada, then there’s probably something morally wrong with.
Are they going to make the cells out of Irony?
Israeli people have as much right to exist as Palestinian people. So let’s not genocide the Palestinians, no matter how desperately Golda Meir claimed they’re not real. Israel has a right to exist =/= Israel has a right to slaughter a culture. It’s not fucking hard you cunts
Israel doesn’t have a right to exist though, it’s explicitly from the outset a genocidal colony in stolen land
Israel is not israeli people, the former of which has no right to exist, the latter of which exists as a temporary and exceedingly new political fiction.
To me, the real tragedy is that a shared identity really could be forged between these two groups. In another world, I can imagine a beautiful fusion between the Israelis and Palestinians, like two trees growing around one another.
So much of the conflict in the West is viewed from a Biblical lens. Israel represents the return of the Jews to their ancestral homeland! But really what present-day Israel represents is the spiritual descendants of the Biblical Israel ruling over and occupying the genetic descendants of the Biblical Israel.
Through this thread, a common identity could be forged. That kind of shared identity is the kind of thing that national identities could be forged from. Instead of “Israel” being defined as “the Jewish homeland.” “Israel” could be defined as “the home of the genetic and spiritual descendants of ancient Israel.” This conflict need not always be “the Jews vs the Palestinians.” It could simply be one type of Israeli and another type of Israeli. Some claim that name by blood. Some claim that name by religion. But both are united in one nation.
To me, the real tragedy is that a shared identity really could be forged between these two groups. In another world, I can imagine a beautiful fusion between the Israelis and Palestinians, like two trees growing around one another.
That existed before 1929.
Does human have right to exist? If yes, then those who identify themselves as Israeli and those who identify themselves as Palestinians have the right to exist.
However, including Israel as a state and government in this statement doesn’t make sense.
Its like someone going to another person house and take over a room then say I have the right to exist. Yes you have the right to exist but not the right to steal, and control the house. Now this state literally committing an ongoing genocide. So yes they state doesn’t have the right to exist.
they do if they hadnt forcibly removed palestinians from the area since ww2.
It is really hard if you’re only able to see the world in binary choices, which seems to be a common root of issues around the world
This is basically the downfall of America.
As a non-American it doesn’t appear as a loss really…
What’s lost and worthy was lost long ago
I just hope they don’t import their culture war BS here any further.
Unabated social media will take down other countries too
German government seems to be as shamelessly bribed and corrupt as Americas.
When it comes to Israel, sort of.
Germany is making extreme over-corrections for their past. Everything related to the two world wars and the role they played in it is subject to censorship and oversight, to a degree that’s almost comical if it weren’t real.
The over correcting logic doesn’t hold much.
From a business point of view when dealing with Israel, it doesn’t take much to figure out they are blocking or limiting Palestinians business.
From a military point of view, it doesn’t take much to realize how genocidal most of these technologies are.
With the US, we can attribute the support to many things, political reasons, capitalism, religious with Christian Zionists, and even blunt blackmailing. However, with Germany all these doesn’t work as well.
Personally, I think German rather have Zionist there than being in Europe. Which is the ultimate solution. If Israel fail, most of these people will go back where they came from ( Poland, Russia, Germany, France, England) or immigrate to NA or SA which would be another problem no one want to deal with.
ONE MILLION Roma were murdered by the NAZIs during the Holocaust, alongside 3 million Jews.
Notice how German politicians don’t “unwaveringly support” the Roma. In fact, they don’t even talk about them.
The “change” in Germany after NAZIsm wasn’t the end of the idea that ethnicity defines how somebody should be treated or that some ethnicities are “good” and others are “bad”, it was merelly moving the Jewish People from the “bad” ethnicity to the “good” ethnicity column.
A consistent and non-racist “correction” for Germany’s past would see all of the actual victims of NAZIsm and their descendants being compensated for it, be they Roma, Jews, Handicaped, Homosexuals, Communists or from any other group, and ONLY the victims, not this Racist bullshit of claiming that all individuals of an entire and very specific ethnicity are all deserving of support even though the vast majority of them are in no way form or shape related to the victims of the NAZIs except for being born in the same ethnicity, whilst not doing it for those from other equally targetted groups (something I emphasize because it really shows how even the supposed “making of amends” is done in a Racist way).
This shit we see in Germany is not a genuine change from the way of thinking of the past, it’s just in the face of defeat doing the minimum required adjustment to the defeated political ideology to please the victors, which was moving a specific ethnicity which is influential in the main winner country of the war from untermenschen to ubermenschen, without doing it for any other targetted ethnicity, much less actually reforming the way of thinking about and acting towards people as “ethnics” that underpinned NAZIsm or even, as we see in this law, refuse to use force to silence dissenting opinions.
The “change” in Germany is mainly changing the façade, not at all the foundations - i.e. image management, not reform - hence how right now the open racism of “unwaveringly supporting” a genocidal nation with no other reason than the dominant ethnicity there and the choice of using force against those who disagree such as this law are right alongside:
Everything related to the two world wars and the role they played in it is subject to censorship and oversight, to a degree that’s almost comical if it weren’t real.
I’m agreeing with you entirely, but I would be remiss if I didn’t point out that 6 million Jews were killed in the Holocaust - 3 million in the camps, and the remainder in the Holocaust-by-bullets or in mobile gas chamber vans or some other means.
Also, fun fact about West Germany, they made all the gay concentration camp inmates serve out the rest of their sentences (though I believe at regular prisons) since being gay was still illegal. The DDR did not do this. West Germany also had a program to place foster children with pedophiles since they figured they’d love them. I shit you not.
It’s not particularly complex. Israel spends hundreds of millions a year on hasbara. In fact they upped the budget by more than 4x this year. Any German politician saying anything against Israel would be seen as Hitler 2.0 by a lot of people, because Israel == Jews and disagreeing with Israel == wanting to genocide Jews if it comes from a German politician in particular.
In 2008, Merkel actually said Israel’s security is Germany’s reason for existence. Merz, an Israel supporter himself, said in October that Germany can’t support another government “unconditionally” because the first priority of a government should be the people that live in the country itself.
Overall, support for Israel is down in Germany (among real people, not politicians), but there’s still a bunch of international propaganda by Israel making Israel out to be victims of literally everything and associating all Jewish people with Israel despite the fact that internationally, many disagree with zionism.
It’ll take long for things to change significantly, but change is underway.
Good.
That said my point still stands that the “support” for the Jewish People in Germany was never a visible element of a move away from the way of thinking which was the foundation of NAZIsm, it was only a façade whilst the Racism remained unabatted and the authoritarian tendencies were only mildly suppressed, as demonstrated by the totally different treatment extended to other victims of the Holocaust such as the Roma People, by the continuation of Race-centric treatment of people when supposedly moving away from the NAZI years into the “making of amends” to the victims (rather than a race-agnostic victim-centric view) and by the repeated use of Force in Germany to suppress political dissent such as llustrated by this law (and the countless videos of the politzei’s treatment of anti-Genocide demonstrators).
At least at the level of the political elites Germany is not a modern liberal nation, it’s a Racist nation with a very limited and mainly performative bit of “liberalism” (in such a fertile field of Race-centric and Authoritarian thinking, no wonder the growth of the AfD)
Germany (and the rest of the West, but Germany is significantly worse than most, IMHO) needs to move away from from the Normalized Racism of using people’s ethnicity as a determinant of their worth and deserved treatment and towards Humanist views, as well as away from creeping Authoritarianism like this.
It was and is so easy for the Zionists in Israel to manipulate Germany exactly because the latter country doesn’t really follow Humanist values (it just puts on a show of being a “modern” “liberal” country) hence the reaction to the Zionist Genocide was not the Humanist reaction (your actions define your worth and thus our support, and those who mass murder civilians don’t get our support), it was the extreme Racist reaction (the Kanzelier proclaiming “we unwaveringly support the Jewish Nation” at a point when the list of murdered babies 1 year old or younger in Gaza was already 17 pages long) and the Racism and Authoritarianism have carried on since, hence the continued forcefull suppression of anti-Genocide views, including this law.
And this shit wasn’t just the CDU and SDP, even the Greens had a Race-centric take rather than a Humanist one, holding a position which can only be derived from the belief that Race is more important than even Human Life.
All this to say that the change that has to happen for Germany to enter the XXI century is a lot deeper and fundamental than the miniscule step of stopping the “unwavering support for Jewish Nation”.
You gotta be careful with these levels of truth
I was kinda for it, but with the dangerous rise in quasi-nazi party AfD, I wonder what’s the point of banning a nazi flag… and it’s even more ridiculous that foreign ethno religious supremacists enjoy that level of protection.
Maybe part of it but Maxwell and Epstein also operated in Europe. Germany has billionaires and easily compromised politicians.
They operated “in Europe” the same way Apple or Google does. They’re still subject to EU law, and while not infallible, Europe has shown it doesn’t just pave the way for oligarchy the same way the US does.
How much do you know about the Rothschilds and France?
Yes a slightly harder target but those UK arrests were because they sold UK secrets and got publicly caught. Very little has been done. The couple emailing about hunting humans, they’re Rothschilds.
Israel is still in Eurovision dude. You’re in a better position than Americans but don’t get complacent and start believing Israel and Russia weren’t actively competing for kompromat in your neck of the woods.
I know that the Rothschilds are a popular talking point for conspiracy nuts, and whenever I hear the name brought up I must prepare myself for some serious eye rolling exercises.
Yeah. That’s what everyone I’ve told this to has said. Next is the part where you google it and read a few very short e-mails several times trying to find some other meaning than what it sounds like.
Also Epstein seems to have regularly been introducing himself as the Rothschild’s money guy.
Dude, I’ve been exposed to this bullshit my entire life. You are not going to miraculously change anything by being umpteenth person to tell me to look up shit or “do my own research”.
It’s just tiresome and pathetic.
Tattorack, thats a theory that night be true-- do you have any data to show us that helps prove its accurate?
That’s not so much a theory as it’s just observing what Germany is doing.
They have strict rules on portrayals of Nazis and Nazi symbols that lead them to censor movies, games, comics, and other media. Examples of this include Indiana Jones or Wolfenstein.
The education system is very strict and specific about what it can talk about concerning the world wars and Germany. If you want detailed explanations, I have a few German friends I could ask directly.
I could also ask them to explain how often Germany paid Israel for WWII reperations and how WWII shaped all rhetoric involving Jews.
Two wrongs don’t make one right, my fellow Germans!
