Congress has wanted nothing to do with conflicts in an official capacity for the last 50-60 years. They want sound bytes in unofficial interviews for grandstanding and to be able to blame everyone else.
This is actually a result of those decades of congress, regardless of party in control, abdicating their constitutional duty. For a recent example, check out post 9/11 and congress.
This. A thousand times this.
Both Obama and Biden have been more than willing to sign a repeal or massive overhaul of the AUMF, but both chambers of Congress and members of both parties therein are cowards who would rather cheer or criticize in front of a camera and microphone than perform their Constitutional duties of checking the power of the Commander in Chief.
If they were willing to sign a repeal of it, nothing stopped them from simply not using it. The AUMF didn’t make them start wars.
- Not a war.
- They have a responsibility to carry out such actions in the presence of Congressional inaction and cowardice.
- As long as the AUMF exists and is in effect, it is both legally and effectively the role of the President to act under its grant of authority in accordance with its purpose.
“The law says we have to kill whoever we want! You wouldn’t us to break the law would you??”
Cool comment my dude. But, I bet you could be even more reductive and purposefully obtuse if you tried. Give it a go; I’m eager to see you progress.
Shame on me for not adding to the discussion but the caffeine still ain’t hit. I just want to say for some reason that seeing a willingly obtuse clown be challenged to be even more so genuinely made me giggle for some reason. Thank you.
I’m sorry but saying the president can, so they have to, is the most reductive thing I’ve ever seen. It’s the epitome of absolute ideology. Thinking a piece of paper absolves the genocidal actions of anyone……
Targeted killings of senior leaders in the Islamic extremist movement is hardly genocide. We have an actual fucking genocide in progress to reference and you want to sell us on the idea of drone strikes as genocide?
As long as the AUMF exists and is in effect, it is both legally and effectively the role of the President to act under its grant of authority in accordance with its purpose.
Nah, this bullet is an off the wall insane interpretation of the AUMF. They were 100% right to mock you for it. Not to mention that the AUMF is actually about September 11, and specifically textually so, not just in motivation. Did the Houthis plan, execute, or shelter those responsible? It’s been a huge stretch to even use it how it’s been used. It’s not in any way, shape, or form a requirement to go fight other random Islamic groups, whether or not they deserve it.
Given that actual US Navy ships have been getting attacked and this is largely in retaliation of that, I think it stretches the imagination a bit to say that the US started this.
From where did you get this opinion? None of the articles I’ve read about the US attack have mentioned an attack on the US Navy. The closest I could find in a search was missiles that landed 10 nautical miles away from a Navy ship in November. Which, at the scale of the ocean is sorta close, but it’s a stretch to call it an attack in need of immediate retribution. All the direct justifications presented by the US are that this is in response to and designed to deter their attacks on commercial shipping.
Here’s a report from Axios but you can find countless others
The Houthi’s have been launching missiles at our ships and hijacking cargo ships basically since thw October 7th attacks. This is just the first time the US has done more than a warning, which is why you’re hearing about it now.
This doesn’t seem to be in response to the thread. The Axios link doesn’t say anything about an attack on the US Navy. The second link has a mention by Biden of “US ships” (not Navy) as targets, but the linked story only says a British navy ship may have been targeted, but they weren’t sure. I’m well aware they’ve been attacking shipping, that’s not in question and not what I’m responding to.
At the same time, we shouldn’t be defeatist when it comes to ethics and holding our government branches accountable. If they are arguing in good faith, we should support efforts for more transparency and secure processes.
Remember the Republican reaction when Obama did the same thing in Libya?
Reeeeeee! 72 hours to get our approval or we’ll impeach you! Reeeeeee! Not authorized! Not funded!
Then when our embassy there… in Benghazi… was attacked… it was years of “Reeeee! Why didn’t you DO something!!!”
After they stripped embassy security funding for it, naturally.
Is Ben Gazi the talented buttery male I hear so much about?
All part of Hillary’s plan to whip up support for war.
Another terrorist group fucks around and finds out.
War is not something to glorify. It’s unfortunate that the situation with Israel/Palestine, Saudis/Iran, and Houthis/US escalated to this point.
Another terrorist group fuck around and innocent people find out.
Don’t think any civilian deaths have been reported so far, just 10 Houthi soldiers according to the Houthis themselves. We’ll see how that shakes out as more information emerges, but we also aren’t Israel - civilian casualties are something we try to avoid.
😂😂 except in the countries we invade…
Source: old enough to remember Iraq and Afghanistan as an adult and have a parent that went to Vietnam.
Yeah, I remember Iraq and Afghanistan too. I followed both very closely. Our civilian casualty ratios were far from Israel’s currently claimed 50-50 (as opposed to what it actually probably is, ie 80%+ civilians).
Fuck, even in Vietnam the ratio wasn’t 50 fucking 50.
Iraq may have had a civilian casualty ratio of up to 77%. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualty_ratio#Iraq_War
A Pentagon leak for 2004-2009 put the number at 66,000 civilians out of 109,000 total fatalities. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War_documents_leak#Civilian_casualties
The Wikipedia source on the first link doesn’t say what the citation claims it does, if you follow it.
On the second, that count would require, what, 80% of civilian deaths to be caused by the US? Assuming the extrapolations it reaches are correct. For a 50-50 combatant-civilian split.
If you want to argue that as a matter of moral responsibility, fine, but the point raised above is quite clearly about military efforts to distinguish civilians from combatants in operations.
The Wikipedia source on the first link doesn’t say what the citation claims it does, if you follow it.
I followed the link to the report and it’s not clear whether the 39k number is total combatant casualties, but you can just calculate from the civilian deaths where the estimate is at least 112k-122k civilian casualties out of 174k total, which is ~70%. You’re acting like that 7% difference is a big gotcha.
And I don’t know why you’re acting like the US being responsible for 80% of casualties in Iraq is a wild idea. We massively overpowered the limited Iraqi capabilities. They had much fewer combatants and didn’t even have the ability to drop bombs. The CCR isn’t about a particular side though, since you’ll always get into muddy questions of who was responsible for a particular death. It certainly wasn’t the case that we were mostly just killing terrorists.
Were those the 10 soldiers in pirate boats attacking a merchant ship? I don’t see any reason for sympathy
They were on land, but may be believably related to the sea attacks.
USA killed plenty civilianscin Iraq and Afghanistan.
Oh look a whataboutism in the wild. Maybe this definition will help you.
Lol what a pathetic taunt.
Edit for the ultra daft downvote crew: the fact the US killed civilians is directly relevant to the blub i responded to, the one claiming the US was bettter than Israel because it did not kill civilians.
For the extra determined ignoramouses ive provided this as an example :
Mhhhmm. Didn’t read the definition I see.
Your link to the definition of ‘avoid’?
I avoided nothing. I addressed the issue directly.
The USA kills civilians.
Israel does at a much faster rate. A genocidal one in fact.
But that does not give any creedence to the notion the USA is innocent.
QED JFC
Oh, sorry. I thought this was related to the genocide in Gaza. Completely unrelated and just trade related in the seas adjacent. Obviously we should protect profits at all costs.
I mean, considering the Houthis aren’t targeting Israeli ships specifically, it’s not really particularly related to the ongoing genocide in Gaza, despite the Houthi claims? It’s terrorists showboating to burnish their own credentials.
Obviously we should protect profits at all costs.
… and what about the human lives threatened by literal terrorists attacking unarmed civilian ships with drones and rockets? Fuck 'em, huh? The people who will suffer from the economic disruption, fuck them too, right? Fucking poors, who cares about them? It’s not like there’s an ongoing global crisis with rising food prices from prior disruptions to supply lines.
Let’s not blow it out of proportion. I disagree with attacking trade routes, but there have been no casualties.
However 12000+ Palestinians have died.
As a civilian, I don’t want to enter a warzone or a disputed route. These people are choosing to and should be protected. However, let’s not pretend it’s not a one sided conflict, based on genocide, which Israeli government ministers have advocated for.
I don’t own any kind f those ships, but if I did, I’d find a different route. It started with just protests against ships stopping at Israel. I wish it stayed there. How many ships can stop at Gaza with humanitarian supplies?
Let’s not blow it out of proportion. I disagree with attacking trade routes, but there have been no casualties.
Because Western military ships have been busy intercepting drones and rockets. This is just the first time we’ve hit back.
However 12000+ Palestinians have died.
Okay, how is that the fault of civilian ships going through international waters?
As a civilian, I don’t want to enter a warzone or a disputed route. These people are choosing to and should be protected. However, let’s not pretend it’s not a one sided conflict, based on genocide, which Israeli government ministers have advocated for.
Until the Houthis starting firing, it wasn’t a warzone or a disputed route. The route isn’t in Israeli territorial waters. It’s nowhere near Gaza or Israel.
I don’t own any kind f those ships, but if I did, I’d find a different route.
The only other route is all the way around Africa.
As a civilian, I don’t want to enter a warzone or a disputed route. These people are choosing to and should be protected. However, let’s not pretend it’s not a one sided conflict, based on genocide, which Israeli government ministers have advocated for.
You do understand that the ship attacks we’re talking about in this thread are happening 1000 miles away from Israel at the clear other end of the Red Sea, right? It’s nowhere near the Gaza warzone (which borders a different sea entirely – the Mediterranean), nor is it even “disputed” by anybody legitimate.
Literally nothing about this, except the Houthi terrorists’ choice of timing, has anything to do with Israel.
It’s a tough situation, but attacking civilians is not a valid way of protesting Israels’ attacks on civilians.
The last war declared by Congress was
Korea in the early 1950sin WW2. Dark Brandon doesn’t have time for this foolishness. Yemen was warned again and again. They’ve now entered the find out stage.edit: brain worms
The last war by US Congress was declared in June 1942, against Bulgaria, Hungary and Romania. US Congress has not made a formal declaration of war since then.
Right but they pass laws granting authorization of military use of force, AUMF. That’s the Congressional authority to declare war under the War Powers Clause of the Constitution.
If you read the annotations to that clause you will see that the framers intent, traditional interpretation, and certainly modern interpretation are in agreement that the Constitution does not foreclose executive initiated use of force in what would be considered self defense, and that would certainly include the measured and limited destruction of an enemy’s ability to carry out further attacks on US interests, and would certainly cover such defensive measures when done in agreement and in concert with a broad coalition of allies.
Yes, we call those “blank checks” to the executive branch. The Germans even have a word for it. We did it with Vietnam and it did not go well. One would have thought the generation in Congress would have learned their lesson given most of them lived through that shitshow.
It goes without saying that military resources can defend themselves when fired upon, there’s plenty of precedent going back well before the formation of the US. The AUMFs were not that. They were very clearly blank checks to wage literal wars anywhere the executive desired while providing the flimsiest of evidence - and Shrub did just that. See: Iraq.
Merely an overly large check. There are limits, and we need the executive branch to be able to respond to urgent threats - the War Powers Act seems to do that.
the 1973 War Powers Resolution, which further requires that presidents not only report to Congress within 48 hours when they deploy U.S. armed forces into hostilities without congressional authorization but also end U.S. participation in those hostilities within 60 to 90 days if Congress does not authorize it after the fact.
Then people here are complaining about A U Military Force but I only see such a thing specifying Iraq. Iraq can’t be pulled into every possibility yeah, I agree Congress needs to get its shit together and constrain or repeal - the Iraq conflict that was created for is done.
Meanwhile, the response to the Houthi terrorism/piracy seems exactly what these regulations provide for
There were two AUMFs. One for “terrorism” and one for Iraq.
And the “terrorism” one is actually textually targeted at the perpetrators of the 9/11 attacks. It’s not even itself overly broad, it’s just been twisted into a global war on terror because the executives want to do that and no one stopped them.
It’s not even itself overly broad, it’s just been twisted into a global war on terror because the executives want to do that and no one stopped them.
Yes, therein lies the problem. It was a stupid mistake to make and those that voted for it should have known better.
Go read the War Powers Act. Then tell me what decade long conflict the US has fought in without an AUMF since it was passed.
Go on.
In any event, no authorization from Congress is needed for this sort of strike, which was essentially just shooting back at someone shooting at us.
I’m not in disagreement, that also wasn’t what my initial reply was about.
Corrected. Thanks.
Yemen has been getting bombed by Saudi Arabia with the full backing of the US for almost a decade now, creating one of the worst humanitarian crises still ongoing. You’re right about the brain worms, but it’s not because you goofed up the last war declared by congress. Dumb Brandon is not cool for continuing the status quo with the military industrial complex.
Ww2, Korea was never declared.
Corrected. Thanks.
Does a formal declaration of war matter?
The Wikipedia entry for the Korean War mentions Congress allocating money for the war effort within the month after US got involved. That certainly appears to be Congressional approval.
And the US response was after a UN resolution calling for it, giving some legitimacy
Yemen was warned not to block the ports of a genocidial neighbour. But they just wouldn’t stop. And now the US has to bomb them. So sad.
Oh fuck off with this tired propaganda line. After Korea we did Vietnam as a “police action” and then Congress filled in the semantic loop hole with the War Powers Act. Which governs how we go to war now. If we need to fight an actual war then Congress has to pass an AUMF, Authorization to Use Military Force.
Every action since Vietnam has either fallen into the 60 day period presidents are allowed for emergencies or an AUMF. Congress has absolutely been exercising it’s war powers. This stupid fucking lie gets trotted out by the far left and the far right for different uses and I’m done hearing it.
Jesus fucking Christ, Congress is peak dysfunction.
Republicans: “Hold my MAGA hat!”
Some progressives need to put down the flowers and smoke some bad guys now and then. Conservatives need to cram their sabers up their own asses and die.
I’ll take soft progressives over the other any day of the week, but demanding Congressional approval is fucking absurd right now. It’ll take 8 months and be filled with unrelated laws, financial packages for Ohio and Texas, and pro-oil deregulation.
Not to mention, having foreseen exactly this problem previous representatives passed the War Powers Act. Biden absolutely has the authority to blow shit up. He can do it without any reason or other authority for 60 days. Then he has 30 days to remove American troops from that area. (Or return force levels to where they were)
So you want more executive power? … almost like that the president can do things without Congress?
… boom dictatorship.
There’s a line, idk what it should be but it should be.
No, but have the power to make quick action against small threats via airstrike and missile strikes shouldn’t need the end endless hem and haw from a bunch of clowns.
They might have a stronger case if they haven’t proven to be a ‘do nothing’ Congress. They can’t even put together a budget.
Congress signed over the rights to just do war crimes whenever you feel like it back under Reagan.
Now the President can do the thing, Congress can call a hearing to complain about it, elections happen, power changes hands, and the only people who suffer are the ones getting bombed.
It’s not a war crime to return fire if fired upon.
“He bombed me back first”
Targeting of civilians and civilian infrastructure, mass arrests and forced removal of native populations, and indiscriminate use of chemical weapons are all war crimes. Hell, use of cluster bombs and mines have been recognized as war crimes since the mid-90s, and yet the US is the world’s largest manufacturer and distributor of both.
So, nobody should be held accountable for firing on a US Navy ship sailing in international waters?
So, nobody should be held accountable for the US eagerly aiding Israel in its quest of genocide? Also, the US has been helping Saudi Arabia bomb the Houthis for almost a decade now and have created a humanitarian crisis in Yemen.
Shooting at international shipping isn’t holding anyone accountable unless you hate shipping corporations. And yeah if you shoot at the military (any military) don’t be surprised when they shoot back.
It’s clearly made the US take notice (since they care more about trade than people’s lives), so mission accomplished. How else do you propose they do it, given the limited resources they have? Take it up with the UN, where the US vetoes any resolution against israel?
Of course someone should be held responsible. So fling a few bombs up in the air and declare anyone they land on “enemy combatants” and then we can say justice was served.
deleted by creator
The US no longer makes leave in place mines. They are all command detonated. That was a Clinton thing. The cluster bombs… We’re actually phasing them out of our arsenal. However the US maintains they’re legal as long as they’re not used in urban areas. Largely because Russia and China still use them and they’re very effective. We’d need to get them seriously on board to actually stop making cluster munitions.
The US no longer makes leave in place mines. They are all command detonated.
We continue to use them on the Korean divide, probably the most heavily mined place on earth. And while we’ve definitely updated our arsenal, I would not bet my life on the reliability of these ostensibly more advanced systems.
The cluster bombs… We’re actually phasing them out of our arsenal.
Sure. By selling them to our allies.
Largely because Russia and China still use them and they’re very effective.
Well, they’re cheap by tonnage, which is why the Russians love them. But they’re also unreliable, which is what makes them so dangerous. They don’t always detonate where they land, and that makes them function as land mines after the fact. They are only “effective” in the sense that they’re explosive devices that litter a large area.
As to China, when was the last time they bombed anyone? Like, at all? To my knowledge, the Chinese haven’t been involved in a war since they signed a peace deal with Vietnam in the 70s. The closest we’ve seen has been police actions along border territories (Xinjiang getting a bunch of jihadist spillover from Afghanistan, slap fights with Indian border guard counterparts, etc). Who have they been dropping cluster bombs on, in living memory even?
The DMZ landmines have been there for 70 years and de-mining that would come with serious risks of sniper attacks, ambushes, and nuclear war. Yeah it really ramps up that quick over there. All we need is for the Hermit King to think we’re clearing breach routes and Seoul goes up. So yeah we’re not removing those.
Even under the Trump administration we’re sticking to “non-permanent” landmines. The most prominent and widespread of which is the command activated claymore.
Most of our allies are also getting rid of cluster bombs. And when Ukraine specifically asked for them we hesitated to sell them. The reason we did so is because of parity in that war. And while they aren’t reliable enough to leave the area safe of UXO, they are extremely reliable at destroying military equipment.
China matters because they’re constantly threatening military action.
So are they going to repeal the War Powers Act? Are we going back to needing a Declaration of War to deal with every pissant pirate?
Not the pirates of pissants? Have they try singing to distract them?
Houthi and the Blowfish
It would be a good start, yes.
No, it wouldn’t. A straight repeal of the War Powers Act also opens us up to another Vietnam. And amending it such that any use of force requires congressional approval would put us in an international straight jacket. From defending our shipping interests to protecting allies. In the event of China deciding it would rather just take existing islands to make it’s “nine dashed line” a reality, we’d be arguing about immigration instead of deploying the Navy. And we would instantly lose the trade access we have to the entirety of the SEA region.
We tried isolationism. It didn’t work.
No one is saying let the planet go to hell
Yes, yes they are. Maybe not you, but there are billionaires saying exactly that.
Asking Congress is a surefire way to get nothing done.
Maybe that’s a good default stance when the topic is war.
Limited war is always a tricky topic. Where do you draw the line between a full on war and making the seas safe for trade,
Luckily, the aftermath of the Vietnam War gave us an answer. The War Powers Act. Which gives the president authority to use the military in situations exactly like this. If he tries to turn it into a big thing, then it has to go in front of Congress.
Humanitarian aid and addressing the reason they are taking up arms.
The Houthis took up arms because of Iranian backing and Yemeni local politics. The Western countries aren’t solving that any time soon. And they’re already receiving HA.
Making the seas safe for trade = shutting down trade sanctions on a genocide
That’s not what they’re doing. They’re firing at any ship they believe even has a Western financial stake in it. No matter where it’s going or what it’s carrying. It could be taking Italian tractors to Somalia to encourage local farming as part of an aid program and they would fire at it.
Isn’t fighting piracy like legal for everyone? Like a private citizen or any country’s military could go out there and hunt pirates. I remember that from when the somali pirates got yeeted.
The AUMF probably also actually has given him the right to do this.
No AUMF required to bonk pirates. It’s the national version of self defense.
None of these representatives objected to us sinking boats involved in piracy operations. They’re objecting to attacks on land against a group that is pretty close to a government. There’s some point at which on-land operations turn from being defending against piracy to regime change. Which may be warranted, but should be decided by Congress.
I’m pretty sure you can attack the pirates when they get back on land too.
Not if they have one foot on home base. No backsies!
I think that’s a baseball reference I’m too european to get
Ha I see why you might think so but I was referring to “neighborhood rules” for kids’ games like Tag. We’d often designate a light pole or a car as “home base” and you couldn’t be tagged as “It” if you were touching it.
I hope you play tag in Europe or else this didn’t make sense either lol
Ah instead a game I’m either too old to remember or too woman to have played. It does sound vaguely familiar though.
Then Congress needs to add that to the War Powers Act.
There are no laws in international waters.
You underestimate the reach of US law. Also, the “Law of the Sea” clearly applies.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Convention_on_the_Law_of_the_Sea
There are laws that govern Antarctica, Outer Space, the Moon, etc. International waters are just less regulated, but there are definitely laws.
Oh yeah the infighting is getting bad. Get ready for an absolute terrible election season for the Democrats.
I’m seeing “leftists” using the same vocabulary as Q-anon style crazy morons. The vitriol is being spat like no matter what their isn’t a right answer and it’s not made better by the fact that we as a country are still basically pushing for all the worse aspects of ourselves because it’s what feels normal.
People are all gonna join in to help burn it down and think they will be the kings of the ashes but largest organized group is gonna be the real victor and it’s for sure as hell not the self hating left.
Maybe I will be wrong and the vote against method will work again but if it does we need to make some hard turns to get things actually getting better and get some companionship happening or it will just be a bloodbath between factions that wanted their scoop of the ashes.
It’s because these “leftists” are right wing trolls. Full stop. This “Genocide Joe” shit in particular is so fucking transparently a trump-style attack it’s laughable. Leftist spaces on the internet are so far up their own reactionary assholes they are now actively protecting far right propagandists and calling it left unity.
Yeah I actually got banned from a “leftist” sub (r/latestagecapitalism on Reddit) because I called out a literal right wing propaganda post from a literal maga mouthpiece that was a lie.
And the mod responded with:
We don’t work with the Demo-kkk-rats
Like a literal fascist response because it makes their dick hard to feel like they are standing up to the bad guys while supporting the end of democracy. Neat. Not a leftist.
It is interesting/sad just how hard Biden is sticking to the old ways of doing things even though most people seem to have moved on from that way of thinking.
*“Most people” applies only to lemmygrad, lemmy.ml and some college campuses.
Seriously - people dramatically overestimate how much has changed.
The legislative branch has been busted for so long that they literally ceded power to go to war to the executive for the good of the nation. Y’all can feel free to undo that at any time once you’re not completely broken.
Last I heard, the AUMFs were still active. Assuming that was used to justify this legally.
No need. The War Powers Act 30 Day emergency powers clearly apply.
Are they suggesting to allow US Navy ships to be attacked without retaliation? It’s been going on for like 2 months now. Are they willing to have that on their voting record?
