Maybe also got some growth from other communists on fedi seeing us and joining ig
Idk, I’m just not built for dunking ig
o7 to all of you who’ve gone through the effort to write big explanations of stuff for passing liberals to see though
We have found old comrades and new ones.
Yes the libs outnumber those we find, and yes it is an endless battle. But it’s worth it.
I’m curious enough to make an account here and actually ask questions since some of the stuff you people have said when calm did make sense to me. But for most people the mean and condescending replies making fun of posts counter-arguing are really offputting, I get that it’s fun but I think if you federated as an attempt to reach out to others and convince them it wasn’t the best idea honestly
People that are open minded get good responses. People that are not get shit responses.
There is literally no point in attempting to reason with people that do not want to be reasoned with. Libs worship civility, even when it’s with fascists.
People that are open minded get good responses.
Eh. A good portion of hexbears are terminally dunk-brained. We’ve been getting obvious satire posts in the dunk tank for ages because people are so eager to dunk on anything they see.
I saw a lot of civil people that got “dunked on”, both in here and by hexbear users in other instances
I think there is a point to arguing with unreasonable people in the internet, because other people are watching, and if you are the one remaining calm when another person is being unreasonably mean or denigrating it gives a convincing aura and vibe. Of course it’s not really pleasant to do though I do understand that
Being civil isn’t the issue. Participating with intent to actually listen and learn is.
This is exactly the point I am making. You think we should respond nicely to people who are NOT participating in good faith, just because they’re being “”““civil””“”. I’m not wasting my fucking time with people who clearly aren’t open to hearing what I have to say. There are people who ARE open to hearing what I have to say and they get a genuine response, with sources, and a conversation, and things are learned.
Libs can’t tell the difference between each other and the literal actual fascists around them and it’s infuriating. Which comes from incredible levels of political illiteracy and deferring all of their opinions and political education to media owned by billionaires.
You think we should respond nicely to people who are NOT participating in good faith, just because they’re being “”““civil””“”.
No that is not what I’m saying… I’m actually talking about being nice to people not civil at all. If your aim is to convince, its useful to be calm and respectful regardless of how rude or disingenuous the other person is, because in the internet other people may be watching the debate and that way of behaving is a lot more convincing than if you’re rude in return. Bad faith isn’t the same as rude, though they often happen at the same time…
I’m not wasting my fucking time
Please calm down, I wasn’t telling you to do anything… I even said that it’s not a pleasant thing to do. Just that convincing-wise it’s better in my experience, but it’s okay and understandable if you don’t want to bother. I’d still disengage with the bad faith person instead of being snarky to them though. You yourself admit people are more swayed by flavour and attitudes than anything in debates so having a bad attitude will just at best make you two look bad
Please calm down, I wasn’t telling you to do anything…
Mate fuck off yeah? You see a single swear word and tell me to calm down like I’ve just committed a sin. I grew up in squats this is how I talk. I am not changing the way I speak in order to appeal to middle-class people from privileged backgrounds. This over-reaction to the way different people speak and the demand that people speak with very specific white kkkracka middle-income mannerisms is just classism.
Listen to the content of what people say. Not the tone in which they say it. Stop tone policing people. All it does is shut everyone out of conversation that doesn’t come from a very particular white suburban upbringing.
You yourself admit people are more swayed by flavour and attitudes than anything in debates so having a bad attitude will just at best make you two look bad
No you see, that’s what I don’t admit. I firmly believe that being harsh with the libs that won’t open up is an effective tool, it makes them uncomfortable, and by making them uncomfortable they eventually change in search of a new comfort zone.
Liberals entire thing is “uphold the status quo”. This is the position of pretty much every single politically illiterate liberal who really doesn’t understand what any ideology actually is. They change their shape in order to fit themselves into whatever the existing social paradigm is.
This is why LGBT people got absolutely nowhere with liberals until they literally bullied them with riots and pride parades saying a big visible fuck you to everyone that ever tried to make them invisible. They could not be asked to change they had to be bullied and forced. Once the social paradigm is changed they then accept it.
This is why anger and cancelling on twitter became a thing. It bullied liberals into new social paradigms.
This is why it works for dirtbag leftists.
And this is why they picked up guns and shot at whoever the nazis told them to shoot at. Not because they were true believers. But because mussolini or hitler and every other fascist simply bullies them into a new social paradigm… and once the paradigm is changed they accept it.
Liberals are absorbomorphs. Their ideology is absorbomorphism.
Bullying works.
Well said.
I thought you were getting angry at me so I tried to defuse the situation, I’m very bad at reading people so I’m sorry if I thought wrong. I didn’t demand anything from you I just asked.
What you’re saying makes sense I suppose I’ve just never seen that happen with someone else. In my experience being a mean bully just gives people a reason to dismiss you without having to engage with you…
Please calm down, I wasn’t telling you to do anything… I even said that it’s not a pleasant thing to do
I think you read swearing as yelling when it’s a different register as often as it is a different tone.
Yeah that’s true, I almost always think someone who is swearing is mad, I have to stop myself and think and reread to not just come to that conclusion by instinct, sometimes I forget to
If your aim is to convince, its useful to be calm and respectful regardless of how rude or disingenuous the other person is
Honestly I’m not sure this might even be true because of how poisoned our culture is. People enjoy watching assholes trolling other people. People love watching people insulting somebody else if it’s in a humorous manner. Many people have admitted that they stuck around and checked out r/chapotraphouse because they found the community culture hilarious and fun
The most popular livestreamers are overwhelming douchey and rage on camera all the time
If we want to reach the younger generation, we have to be witty assholes
Appeal to emotion works just as well or even better logic many times
Yeah maybe I just extrapolated my way of judging people arguing and thought everyone else did the same, but looking back what you’re saying is definitely more prevalent
Also that is a… pig… pooping on his… balls
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Hi, I saw you in another thread and you seem cool and here in good faith, so I’m sorry that you’re getting dunked on. We’re a little high-strung and defensive right now because we’re getting used to federation, so there’s a bit of friendly fire. However, there is a reason that we’re like this.
Here’s a quote from Jean-Paul Satre about far-right debate tactics:
Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.
If you are too attached to using a logical approach and giving the other side the benefit of the doubt, if you engage on their terms and let them define terms however they want, you’ve alreadly lost. No matter how many of their concerns you address, they will always come up with another. You’ll just end up looking like a nerd or a crank, while at the same time lending credibility to them by engaging with them. But if you don’t engage, you leave them unchallenged and it makes it look like you’re afraid or have no answer.
The solution to this dilemma is Pig Poop Balls. PPB, along with dunking and rudeness, is a our way of keeping people on the straight and narrow. In theory, it’s not supposed to be a first approach unless the person is obviously trolling. Ideally, we make our case with logic and evidence, but then when someone deviates from that and starts trying to redefine to terms of the debate, that’s when we start bullying. We want two things to happen: first, we want to make our case effectively enough that people can’t just write us off, and second, we want people to feel like they’re not entitled to just say whatever nonsense they feel like and have it be respected and taken seriously. After all, an informed, well reasoned, and evidenced based position occupies the same amount of space as random nonsense. If random nonsense is tolerated, then it will dominate, because it’s much easier to produce. So the proper role of PPB and bullying is to weed out the nonsense in order to have higher level discussions.
It’s also, like, human beings did not evolve to be rational. A lot of the time, getting in someone’s face and screaming at them is just more effective than trying to debate them. It’s unfortunate and unpleasant but it does work. Generally though it’s most effective when you have a reasonable, theoretical side to back it up, so that it’s harder for people to write you off.
But yeah that culture developed when we were on Reddit and had lots of people wandering in and just reciting some baby-brained right wing cliche to try to own us, expecting us to clutch pearls or engage on their terms, and they generally had no idea how to react when we took them off-script. Then we were an obscure, isolated niche for three years, with only the ocassional troll wandering in, and so people got used to a higher level of ideological purity - we also had lots of disagreement and interesting discussions, but we mostly agreed on some basic ideas (which is kind of necessary to have higher level discussions). So now we’re kind of… adjusting to the new situation, where a lot of people disagree with our positions on a fundamental level. I think (hope) it’ll calm down (to a degree) in a week or so.
Honestly I don’t think I was dunked on, though I have to admit I’ve never had that many people reply to me in a forum before, I woke up to 22 notifications ahaha
I think what you’re saying is right, I really like that quote too, the big issue with online arguing is that it takes an hour to properly dismantle a lie told in a few seconds, and… honestly people on the right rarely ever believe things thanks to logic or science, they only use them as resources to prove they’re true later on if they can, but otherwise they just don’t really care. I’ve shown my mother massive meta-studies on trans issues collecting data from all around the world and all kinds of sources and she doesn’t even shrug it off she just pretends it doesn’t exist. Because they think the world is simple, and complicated answers are just people… trying to complicate things.
I honestly just disengage at that point, but I can see why maybe an uncomfortable experience being “dunked on” may pull some people’s heads out of their asses
Not everyone is convinced by civility. This is true online and in real life. You might see civility as being reasonable and convincing while I see civility as being facetious and insincere.
a fascist will definitely see civility as being weak, but that’s someone you probably couldn’t convince in any way anyhow.
I don’t personally want to dunk, but it is entertaining watching the dunk. And there’s always more for me to learn from my comrades because I am a
student always
Idk, I’m just not built for dunking ig o7 to all of you who’ve gone through the effort to write big explanations of stuff for passing liberals to see though
Yeah, honestly this is anxiety-inducing for me. I am simply not built for twitter-like endless arguing/dunking. It did bring out a bit of effortposting out of me, but at what cost? Especially since I have to watch out for what I say in case I say something horrifically wrong (because there’s libs watching) or when there’s a reply notification it could be some 🌐 bozo ready to fight.
I don’t think you have to worry about saying something wrong: libs will find ways to shit on the most well rounded and honed arguments. Like yeah it feels bad when you’re wrong but at the end of the day it’s not a huge deal if you lose an argument. I definetly get the latter fear, it isn’t something I’ve had to deal with since I haven’t been fighting the libs this past week 😔
Trust that if some bozo is trying to start a fight, your comrades will be there to dunk on them.
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Yeah, it’ll fucking suck if blahaj.zone defeds us because they’re the only none commy instance I like
Blåhaj zone defeded early from hexbear before federation was possible. The admin had a change of heart or something before it was turned on. The two biggest trans-supportive instances not being linked would be disappointing. Seems like specifically choosing to fed and turning off a block makes it more likely to not be turned off again as the struggle has been worked out.
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Oh yeah I meant defeds, auto correct delenda est
I had a feeling this would really mess with the community which had developed here and it did, the thing I used this site for was to be able to hear from people outside the lib/fash echo chambers everywhere else online and now the coziness of that is gone and replaced with a bro troll energy. I don’t care who you dunked on or how hard you did it, spreading the word of your great victory over some internet moron just means I get stuck hearing another stupid opinion even if you epically tear it apart, and if I wanted to just read stupid opinions I can do that on
or twitterExactly. I’m tired of forum drama. I don’t give a shit what random liberals on the internet say. Imagine if I posted every single fucking tweet from random Elon reply guys.
Are they all dumb and easy to dunk on? Yeah. Does that mean everyone else needs to see them? Absolutely not. Please let us talk about systemic issues and global politics again instead of “oooh another lemmy user posted cringe” as if anyone cared.
So far federation has gone more or less exactly as I thought it would: the liberals didn’t magically see the light after the same big tent tactics failed to work the last thousand times, we’ve been flooded with random lib morons spewing their tired bullshit all over like a cancerous sludge.
Here’s what I wrote in the original federation threads:
I come to this site specifically so I don’t have to see a raging, genocidal liberal say you’re literally Hitler if you don’t support nuking Moscow. I come here specifically so I don’t have to deal with petty internet drama. Which we already have wrt struggle sessions, do we really want to make it worse? I don’t see why we should ruin the less-shitty nature of this site just so we can yell at liberals who will just block us. (They will be so owned for the one minute before your comment is removed.) If you want to get into fights on another forum sign up for an account on another forum. Many people like the site because it’s a safe space from reddit bros and their reddit bro takes. Just because some people think it would be funny to have libs show up here to be bullied doesn’t mean we should just can the years of curation and fine tuning. It’s an extra two minutes for you to go to beehaw or whatever and get into useless fights where it’s just you and the other guy telling each other to kill themselves. Pretending that telling libs to post hog on the internet is some kind of revolutionary praxis and quoting Mao about it is just kinda sad, if not incredibly funny. Pretending that it will effect any change at all is even funnier. Applying a text written in the 1930s about interparty disciplinary policy to your dumb online fights is some real brain genius shit. It’s such a perfect encapsulation of the western left. Terminally online event horizon.
I’ve seen 3 libs so far stop and question their assumptions and the systems around them, and then disengage from their debate-broing
have patience!
We’ll convert the ones who are able to be saved and the lost causes will segregate themselves by banning and blocking and defeding us while shitting and crying and turning into a corn cob
I managed to persuade one to read on authority by just being nice to them so I count that as a personal dub for me
Being nice works sometimes, its important to know when to go hard and when to be gentle
From my observation, both at the same time gets the best results. I hesitate to call it good cop/bad cop but maybe that’s what it is
nice comrade/naughty comrade
Yeah I like that more
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I just wanted an environment away from the redditification that the rest of the internet has become. Sticking to local instances is kinda helping until one of those fucking goobers comes in with their welll akshully bullshit
the good part of that is that when they come into our territory we can just shell them with impunity
Yeah that’s hillarious and all, but i can see how people still get tired of all the shitlib dinguses waltzing into our space being redditor debatelords. That they shrivel and turn into a corncob and drop gems like “i’ve got like 200 messages from insane tankies in my inbox” is amusing, but doesn’t change the fact that we’ve lost having a niche to ourselves where we could completely avoid that particular way of starting self-aggrandizing internet fights.
I think we will have local-only comms before too long which will help things out
You can take the redditor out of reddit, but you can’t take the reddit out of the redditor
no disagreement here, i do not enjoy having these witless wonders shit up my inbox or my precious bear website
i only meant it in a silver lining sense
I think the decentralized -verse will inevitably split into the lemmy.ml bloc and the lemmy.world bloc, and most of the redditification will happen at .world if it hasn’t already. It’s just what makes the most sense - unlike with Reddit proper the mods of lemmy instances don’t have to share space with other large instances that they don’t like.
Did the Star Trek instance defed or something? I remember seeing their posts at first but haven’t seen them recently.
I’m also still wishing there were more hobbyist instances/communities to interact with, since this has always been a little lacking.
Looks like there are a bunch in the instances list. How it works, from my understanding, is that someone has to search for a comm and/or subscribe before the content actually syncs. I ended up subbing to all the hexbear comms so they show up on Mander but I’m the only one subbed to most of them.
Unfortunately, someone in the home instance has to find and interact first.
There’s also a bot that some instances run which automatically subs to all linked comms so they are searchable from within a home instance but not many run it.
:0 Could you link to the got repo for this bot? I wouldn’t mind running for Hexbear
Found one, not sure if it’s the same one.
https://github.com/lflare/lemmy-subscriber-botThoughts? I can run this or Hexbear admins might be better to run it.
You should run it by the admins and our big beautiful tech-heads since that kind of stuff is in their domain
Cheers, I’m busy today so I’ll forget if I don’t come back to this later, mind giving me the usernames of the big busty beautiful tech folks and admins who’d be relevant to this discussion or tagging them in this thread?
I’ll let them know and refer them to this thread. To clarify the question you’re planning on asking them, are you asking for permission on running the above github link as a bot on here or to have it interface with your account in some manner?
Much thanks for the info/advice! Also, that bot sounds super useful.
locals only! but hopefully this experiment brings in some new people who decide to stay here
I think the novelty of dunking on those losers will wear out around the same time they begin defedding from us. The lib instances are already complaining about us, and barring a firm stance from their admins which will also lead to its own drama, they’ll will eventually defed from us. I don’t see the current vibe lasting for very long.
I know I shouldn’t think of Hexbear as /r/chapotraphouse 2 but we did bring the best-in-class shitposting along with us. Now we also have retrieved the ability to evangelize
i think it’s more like /r/chapotraphouse 5 or 6
2_2_2_2 I think
Please don’t stop we need you
Eh I wasnt dunking that much anyway, the rest of hexbear was already doing a good enough job
Yeah they really don’t need us lol
I mainly don’t want hexbear have a reputation of being annoying and pestilential, instead of funny, welcoming, unwelcoming to bigots, and very far left.
Yeah I’m doing my part by trying not to be too aggressive and just participating in queer threads entirely apolitically
What, are you folks planning on turning off your federation or something? Because if so, please tell your supreme leader that I’d hate to see you go.
Nah we’re not turning it off, for better or worse. I’m just bored of making fun of anti communists and centrists now so I’m gonna stick to just posting locally and maybe in a few of the outside communities like on blahaj.zone because that seems to be one of the only actually interesting instances I’ve seen
I don’t think so but a but the userbase seemed pretty split on wanting it. Ive enjoyed it so far though :)
Honest question, do y’all not like hobby communities? I can understand if this venue is purely an outlet for sociopolitical discussion for y’all. But there are a lot of smaller communities now at your fingertips, for quirky hobbies and topical discussion. Ones that’d totally welcome you if you want to take a break from dunking and just want to talk about music, or VHS, or rabbits, or JavaScript.
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That makes sense, I think.
To be completely transparent, I think the political infighting between instances and the resulting siloing is going to kill the potential Lemmy has as a content aggregator.
I had hopes this’d be a varied content platform, but now I just feel like it’s a soap box like every modern social network.
To your point, it might be wise to just return to individual forums that cater to specific topics.
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There is no need for a giant federation. Hexbear existed on its own for years, as does Raddle and other sites. There will just be more than one federations.
I don’t post about many of my other interests under this name to avoid revealing much about my identity. Agitating for left wing politics can bring
rightoids offering you helicopter rides or adding you to their “jew list”. I think a lot of people on hexbear have probably adopted the same siloing strategy so the harassment is only online and won’t follow you anywhere.we love hobby communities, they’re just fairly low activity. most people sort by active so the top posts get the most comments. but there are semiactive mycology comm, gardening, and tech news comms. there’s also a music comm that gets a lot of posts but not many comments, so you have to sort by new to see them.
i’m definitely interested in those, and would be happy to see that kind of stuff showing up in my feed. i do not really understand how the whole thing works, but after federation my feed mostly added stuff from lemmy.ml, stuff from that good trans forum named after that shark plushie, and people who are mad at us. i’d be psyched to see stuff about rabbits or CRT repair or whatever, it’s just not happening rn
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The hobby communities I’m interested in are all inactive unfortunately
I love them, they’re my favorite part of internet discussion forums. Reddit and FB groups swallow most of that activity, unfortunately.
