• ChickenLadyLovesLife@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    5
    ·
    15 hours ago

    Fun Ataturk fact: dude would adopt “orphan” girls (quotes because some of these girls still had parents who voluntarily gave them up), raise them as his daughters, and then start fucking them as soon as they were old enough. And this made him not even close to being one of the worst people in Turkey, as he didn’t participate in the Armenian massacres (in fact he pushed the government to admit the crimes and punish the perpetrators).

    • PugJesus@piefed.socialOPM
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      3
      ·
      edit-2
      12 hours ago

      Fun Ataturk fact: dude would adopt “orphan” girls (quotes because some of these girls still had parents who voluntarily gave them up), raise them as his daughters, and then start fucking them as soon as they were old enough.

      If you don’t have a reliable source for this, it’s getting removed. Every biography of Ataturk I’ve read EDIT: Apparently not every one I’ve read is in agreement that Ataturk’s children were adopted as a political-cultural gesture to show the importance of supporting women, as feminism was a major and controversial platform of Ataturk’s ideology, and to burnish his image as a paternalistic authority figure.

      SECOND EDIT: The paragraph in the book in question is vague and can very easily be read as implying emotional dependency rather than molestation (and I still think that might be the intended implication rather than a sexual relationship), especially considering the formal prose and that it’s a very brief aside. It doesn’t point to any particular evidence, and all other accusations I’ve found in translated Turkish media likewise seem to be speculative based simply on the fact that Ataturk adopted girls and raised them in his house, and that he was close with his eldest adoptive daughter, who accompanied him as an unofficial first lady on state affairs (since he was divorced) and who worked closely with him on academic matters.

      This seems like an accusation made in good-faith by the commenter and taken from a legitimate secondary source, but I remain personally disinclined to believe it unless there’s further evidence for it.

      • AlDente@sh.itjust.works
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        3
        ·
        7 hours ago

        In the previously posted quote, I don’t believe the terms and phrases “harem”, “groom them”, “lover”, “he could use them as he chose”, and “wife and children became in effect one” give a vague impression of his relationships with his daughters. I find these hard to interpret as anything but describing an abusive sexual relationship.

        I’m by no means an expert on this subject, but I found a few other segments from the biography that I believe contribute to the bigger picture of how he viewed young girls and women in general:

        Thus the dining-rooms of the embassies and the clubs and the Ankara Palace Hotel hummed with the latest gossip about Atatürk’s public behaviour. No woman was held to be safe at his hands. Turkish mothers might indeed thrust their daughters at him (and Turkish husbands their wives), but Diplomatic mothers would hurry their daughters away from a party for fear he would invite them to his table.

        Madame Kovatcheva, the wife of his friend the Minister of War, was a Macedonian, and Kemal’s growing association with her young daughter Dimitrina was assumed by the local gossips to have political undertones. In fact, it had a more romantic flavour. Kemal had never before come to know on close terms a young girl of good family and European refinement, and it was this that intrigued him in Dimitrina.

        Asked once what qualities he admired most in a woman, he replied, ‘Availability.’

        • PugJesus@piefed.socialOPM
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          1
          ·
          edit-2
          6 hours ago

          In the previously posted quote, I don’t believe the terms and phrases “harem”, “groom them”, “lover”, “he could use them as he chose”, and “wife and children became in effect one” give a vague impression of his relationships with his daughters. I find these hard to interpret as anything but describing an abusive sexual relationship.

          It’s also written by an aristocrat in the 1960s whose tendency towards florid prose is apparent throughout. “Groom” as in “child grooming” was not in common usage until the 1980s or 90s, I feel obligated to note. Kinross often describes Ataturk in terms of power and how he used people, often with asymmetrically emotional relationships; in that context, and that of a man emerged from the literal Ottoman Empire, ‘harem’ is much less suggestive. It’s noted by Kinross at multiple points that Ataturk lacked a real family or emotional support for most of his adult life, and was a deeply lonely man, not on a romantic level, but on the level of human connection.

          On top of that, Kinross’s biography is one of the English language sources on Ataturk, and if it was meant (or interpreted at the time of release) as an accusation of molesting his daughters, considering how the Turkish government tends to react to such things, I suspect there would be much more controversy around the book itself. I also suspect that it would be an accusation passed around much more often by Islamists who despise Ataturk if it had any substance, as his widely-speculated bisexuality so often is.

          “Lover” is the most suggestive term used, and sparked me to spend some two hours searching through sources, English and (translated, as I don’t speak it) Turkish for any other accusations of a similar sort. Only his eldest adoptive daughter comes up as a potential lover in any serious treatments, and even then as fairly fringe speculation largely predicated on the fact that they lived in the same house and she acted as his ‘first lady’ at affairs of state, itself not unusual. The British embassy at the time notes the rumor in internal correspondence, but dismisses it - and the Brits were hardly Ataturk’s biggest friends.

          I’m biased, and like I said, it certainly can be legitimately read that way. But it’s also not as cut-and-dry as you suggest here.

          I’m by no means an expert on this subject, but I found a few other segments from the biography that I believe contribute to the bigger picture of how he viewed young girls and women in general:

          That Ataturk had a reputation as a womanizer, especially earlier in life, is not in question; only whether he had sexual relationships with his daughters. Also, that first quote, I believe, is presented in the book to contrast his reputation with the reality, isn’t it?

        • PugJesus@piefed.socialOPM
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          6
          ·
          edit-2
          11 hours ago

          Ataturk: The Rebirth of a Nation by Patrick Kinross.

          One small problem - I own and have read that book, and have it on my Amazon account as an ebook no less, and to my recollection it says nothing of the sort and in fact speculates on Ataturk’s possible impotency during the 20s and 30s from venereal disease contracted during his younger years.

          Do you have a rough idea of what page this accusation is on?

          EDIT: Another user pointed out the paragraph. It’s an aside, but it arguably makes the accusation. I apologize for my hostility.

          • ChickenLadyLovesLife@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            3
            ·
            11 hours ago

            For the girls themselves, so ambivalent a father-lover-schoolmaster relationship might create certain psychological stresses. But for Kemal it provided the family background he needed, one from which irksome ties of blood were missing, and in which wife and children became in effect one.

            This is an aside? Lol “certain psychological stresses”. One could just as easily describe it as a whitewashing. But good for Kemal, he got what he needed!

            • PugJesus@piefed.socialOPM
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              2
              ·
              11 hours ago

              I mean, yes, it is literally an aside just before the end of the chapter.

              If true, it’s abhorrent. But I’m disinclined, for reasons stated above, to think it’s true at this point in time.

          • AlDente@sh.itjust.works
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            7
            ·
            14 hours ago

            I just downloaded the book from Anna’s Archive, and after a quick search, found this on page 853:

            Adolescents attracted and interested him, and when the girls reached the age when they sat regularly at table he began to take notice both of their charms and their talents. None of them was exceptionally pretty; nor had they the graces of women of the world. But they provided him with the ideal ‘harem’. They were in his power, thanks to their youth and their dependence on him. He could groom them and mould them and guide them in the direction he wanted them to follow. He could use them as he chose – and when he no longer chose, could ‘wean’ them and launch them into marriage or into a career. For the girls themselves, so ambivalent a father-lover-schoolmaster relationship might create certain psychological stresses. But for Kemal it provided the family background he needed, one from which irksome ties of blood were missing, and in which wife and children became in effect one.

            • PugJesus@piefed.socialOPM
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              3
              ·
              14 hours ago

              Hm. It seems that’s the paragraph doesn’t continue into (or come from) any broader explanation, which might be why it failed to make an impression on me back when I read it. I’ll have to look into the accusation for the sake of being able to have an informed opinion on it.

              All the same, that is a legitimate source, and I can definitely confirm that that quote is in my copy, so the comment remains.

  • Barbarian@sh.itjust.works
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    32
    ·
    1 day ago

    He wasn’t called Ataturk until the Turkish parliament granted him that surname as an honorific. Translates to “father of the Turks”.

    It’s kinda like hearing Washington being referred to as “father of the country” and going “lol, man named father of the country started a country. Lol writing bad!”

    Edit: looks like PugJesus already acknowledged this, but I’ll still let my comment stand.

  • PugJesus@piefed.socialOPM
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    66
    ·
    1 day ago

    Explanation: Mustafa Kemal Ataturk is widely considered the founder of modern Turkiye - certainly the founder of the Turkish Republic.

    “Ataturk” literally means “Father of the Turks”, though, to be fair, the name was bestowed on him AFTER he founded the republic.

  • sad_detective_man@sopuli.xyz
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    7
    ·
    edit-2
    21 hours ago

    Can I hear some more examples of Games Workshop writing? Is it like naming a space marine Diddy and making him diddle people?

    • SmoothOperator@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      13
      ·
      21 hours ago

      The Ultramarine space marine chapter are colored ultramarine, but the lore reason for their name is because they’re from the Ultramar planet.

      One of the space marine chapter heads is called Lion El’Johnson. He leads the Dark Angels, and is named after Lionel Johnson, the nineteenth-century English poet who was the author of “The Dark Angel.”

      • sad_detective_man@sopuli.xyz
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        4
        ·
        21 hours ago

        Lol Ultramar is a hilarious name to give a planet. I want to be a fly on the wall during that first conversation “trust me, naming it this will make a bajiollion sense in the future. It’ll pay off”. Unless it was the other way around, then “hmmmmm yes I see this place is green and fertile to become a home for us Ultra Marines. And since it is our home we shall call it-” “I THINK WE SHOULD CALL IT YOUR GRAVE” *standard warhammer violence noises*

    • PugJesus@piefed.socialOPM
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      12
      ·
      22 hours ago

      Angron is the leader of the World Eaters Legion. He has Butcher’s Nails in his brain, which causes him constant pain and agony, making him angry all the time.

      Ferrus Manus (Latin, literally, ‘Iron Hand’) is the leader of the Iron Hands Legion. His Legion replaces parts of their body, like hands, with metal/cyborg parts out of a religious devotion to metal.

      Anything to do with the Space Wolves, who name every wolfin’ thing they have after some manner of wolf.