“I think the biggest problem is that your messaging to Arab Americans can’t just be ‘Trump’s a fascist, Trump is Hitler. Big, scary orange man, vote for me.’ Part of being a part of the American political system is being able to separate yourself from your opponent and lay out a better vision. And she did not do that,” Abdelrahman said.
Hey, maybe in 2028 the Dem candidate can run on repealing the national abortion ban. That feels like more than saying, “I WON’T enact a national abortion ban”. Yayyyy /s
“He at least, at least came and spoke to the Muslims. He heard them and said, ‘OK, I will finish. I will end the war in Middle East,’ even if he didn’t say, you know, a genocide, but he said he will bring peace,” she said. “And that’s what the people wanted to hear, and that’s why he got the votes.”
“Just lie to us at least”. Fuck me…
I need anyone involved with these write “I will not enable a greater evil through my inaction” 69 times on a chalkboard
What you’ve done is basically said “I wanted steak for dinner, and got chicken, so I just forced everyone to snort draino instead!”
Don’t worry, as this thread shows, the kinds of people who think like this have learned absolutely nothing, and are determined to learn absolutely nothing.
You saved Palestine 🥳🥳🥳🥳🥳🥳🥳
People like you are the reason the democratic party refuses to learn anything from this loss, and will continue to do whatever their donors want at the cost of the will of the voters. Because they know that no matter how bad they get, they’ll alwats have scared little followers waiting around to vote for them unconditionally and shame anyone who tries to use what little leverage they had to make a stand. If enough people had spoken up in the year before the election then maybe you could have saved Palestine. And stopped Trump from getting in. But you got played and still dont realize, and the Democratic leadership doesn’t even care that they lost because they know Trump will make them look good again, and they get to launder another Billion dollars in 4 years time.
I don’t really see how the Uncommitted movement could have done anything differently. They had pretty simple demands: let a Palestinian speak at the DNC, meet with families of Palestinians, meet with our leadership. The Harris campaign ignored all of those requests, so in the end, they declined to endorse her, but still urged their supporters not to vote Trump or third-party.
Endorsing her just wasn’t an option, given that she did nothing to meet them halfway. If your spouse is abusive, and you say, “If you ever treat me like that again, I will leave you,” then you have to leave them if their behavior doesn’t change. Otherwise, you are just inviting more abuse. If you tell a politician, “These are the minimum actions you must take to earn our endorsement,” and they ignore you, you can’t endorse them anyway. Otherwise, you’re announcing your demands carry no weight.
The Abandon Harris (previously Abandon Biden) movement was more hard-line, and the Democrats were clearly too centrist and hawkish to meet their demands for an immediate arms embargo But the Uncommitted movement offered reasonable steps that the Harris campaign could have taken to win over Arab Americans, and she flat out ignored them. She is clearly to blame for not taking that offramp.
No. And fuck you for taking that position. That Uncommitted position doesn’t ‘punish’ Harris, it simply ensures that a demagogue would be elected. AND just coincidentally, the early actions of that demagogue signals that Palestine simply won’t exist in any significant fashion in a few years.
The direct result of your holier-than-thou’ position is that Palestine gets fucked 10 times harder. Good job asshole.
Well, A) I’m describing the position Uncommitted was in, not giving my own. B) Who the hell are you quoting when you say, “punish?” That word doesn’t appear in my comment, and I definitely didn’t say that the Uncommitted leaders were trying to punish anyone, so what the fuck are you talking about? Are you actually arguing with me, or someone you made up in your head? C) Your entitled, sneering attitude is indicative of why Harris lost; telling Palestinian that Harris won’t oppose the genocide, but vote for her anyway or else; telling teamsters she didn’t need them to win; it turns out that was a losing strategy, huh?
By the way, I actually voted for Harris, despite her floundering, directionless campaign, but since I’m not a complete idiot, I want to understand people who didn’t. Blaming other people for Harris’s loss might feel nice, but internet temper tantrums don’t win elections.
Anyway, I could also call you an asshole and tell you to get fucked, but honestly, I’d rather you work on your reading comprehension. You don’t seem to have understood (or at least engaged with) anything I said besides, “Uncommitted didn’t endorse Harris.” Honestly, based on your comment, I’m not even sure you understand what the Uncommitted movement was.
I will apologise for my aggressive response. I conflated your position with direct support for the underlying. That was a mistake and I apologize.
Re the ‘punish’ comment, I remain completely disgusted with Uncommitted due to their stated goals ’ a protest campaign aimed mainly to pressure Joe Biden and Kamala Harris to achieve a ceasefire in the Israel–Hamas war and impose an arms embargo on Israel’
No such political pressure towards the Trump campaign? I recognize that he isn’t the sitting president but even a casual observer can see that his presidency would likely be significantly worse for Palestine.
However, re third party or ‘none of the above’ voters, including any teamsters that did not vote for Harris because she didn’t beg, fuck em. I believe their fence sitting (at least partially) enabled this right wing smorgasbord.
Well, I get what you’re saying, but I think Harris’ failure to negotiate with these groups is entirely on her. The Uncommitted movement’s goals were very lofty, but their demands were small. They wanted State Rep. Ruwa Romman to give a speech at the DNC, and a leaked draft showed it was a very mild speech that didn’t even condemn Israel. It just called for an end to the war. After the DNC declined, they asked her to meet with families who’d lost loved ones in Gaza, and she ignored the request. Finally, they gave her until September 15th to hold a meeting with them, and she again ignored them, so they decided not to endorse her.
The Uncommitted movement didn’t create the problems Harris had with the Muslim community; Biden’s handling of Gaza did that. The Uncommitted movement just took that anger, organized it, and put it towards productive action. That’s what activist leaders are supposed to do. The Uncommitted leadership was clearly looking for any gesture towards the Palestinian community that they could take to their supporters, and Harris just wouldn’t do it. You have to do something to win an activist groups’ support. Endorsing her after she snubbed them wouldn’t have convinced the Uncommitted members to vote for Harris, if would have convinced them their leaders were pushovers.
And that sentiment, writ across the country, handed the election on a platter to the Republican party. Who will be arguably worse for Palestine that the Democrats.
Ultimately none of the Uncommitted arguments are wrong - I would go so far to say they are reasonable - but they presume that the alternative is better than the incumbent. Which I believe is manifestly misplaced in the 2024 election. All well and good to withhold support because you’ve been ignored, but this is a prime example of cutting off your nose to spite your face.
Anyway. I respect that you’re clarifying and I appreciate that.
No, they presumed Harris would be reasonable and make concessions to the will of the people. The fact that she didnt isnt on the people, its on her. She did nothing but try to appeal to the center-right which clearly didnt work, but she didn’t learn andbthe Democratic party still isnt gonna learn. Nobody assumes Trump is better either, they just refused to cave to the Democrat’s clear manipulation of the situation and disdain for the average person.
There was also pressure on the Trump campaign too. And what did he do? Went to Dearborn and met with Arab-American leaders and lied about how he wants peace. Biden/Harris couldn’t even do that minimum. Biden detoured his campaign to avoid the area completely. Harris got a lot of the community back on board but then couldn’t bring herself to say that she would have done a single thing differently than Biden. She couldn’t even walk back Biden’s anti-Palestinian comments.
And you seem to miss the reason that the Arab and Muslim-American communities struggled this year; it’s the Trolley problem. You’re asking me to vote for someone who is actively helping murder people in your community, when asked about it he has no remorse and said he would do it all again and not even claim he will do better next time, and I’d better fall in line because the other person is worse. You’re asking me to actively vote to kill people in my community and threatening me with more deaths if I don’t. Can you see why this is such an unappealing choice? Obama killed innocent people in drone strikes but he at least tried to claim it was an accident and was doing better and supported us against the active bigots in the other party trying to ban our existence. Biden stubbornly ignored a solid YEAR of pressure, falsely promised he heard us after the primaries and then refused to hear anyone out. Well he lost by an even greater margin than our community and he has only himself to blame. He’s not even wallowing, he’s reportedly complaining that he could have beaten Trump if that awful Pelosi didn’t real his internal polling and make him stand aside.
People like you seem to think protesting against genocide is a bigger problem than sending billions in support of genocide. I can’t tell if it’s a matter of diehard party support above all else or simple delusion.
Just acknowledge that we were always getting one of two options. This isn’t confusing in the slightest.
To extend the analogy used in the comment starting this thread, it’s like leaving your abusive partner to live with a more abusive partner.
Why the ever loving fuck would you choose the worse option?
The choices were genocide or genocide. Apparently some privileged people here haven’t noticed that the genocide has already been getting worse and worse for over a year now.
Maybe electing someone unlikely to restrain them at all while simultaneously making shit worse in the US and Ukraine, doing a 180 on what little climate progress we’ve made, making abortion illegal nationwide, and reducing/ending social security will help.
There’s people in my community who lost relatives in Gaza. I’ve been to their funerals. Their families will tell you, “Trump didn’t kill my family, Biden did.” Please tell me how I could convince them to put that aside and vote for Biden anyway. We tried, despite Biden’s speeches on the topic making it harder and harder since he decided to twist that knife in deeper and deeper by giving such helpful speeches saying that he doesn’t trust Palestinians or that Israel has not committed any war crimes.
In the end, Harris got far more votes in my community than Trump did, but it didn’t make any difference since Trump won by a margin bigger than all the voters in my community.
Trump ultimately ended up carrying Dearborn, a majority Arab American city in Michigan, by more than 6 percentage points — a massive swing from Biden’s nearly 40 point win there in 2020. But most Dearborn voters also voted against Trump, who got about 43% support in a deeply split field.
Guess you’re not in Dearborn.
I wonder if these people just don’t think Trump is that great a threat or still haven’t figured out how FPTP voting works yet.
Biden wasn’t restraining israel at all and Harris kept talking about how she’d be a continuation of Biden. Now you’re bringing in a bunch of other issues that aren’t what these voters are focused on. Turns out you have to appeal to voters to get their votes.
You seem to be under the impression that all discussions between the two countries happened in public. Do I have that right?
As I said in the other comment you left, your interpretation of the analogy makes no sense. Your point would be valid if I were discussing Arab and Muslim voters who voted for Trump, but I’m not; I’m discussing the Uncommitted movement, who endorsed neither candidate.
Oh they only didn’t know whether they wanted to better or worse option. Still pretty goddamn stupid.
Yeah, also no, and it you’d actually read the original comment, you’d know that. As I said:
they declined to endorse her, but still urged their supporters not to vote Trump or third-party.
They knew Trump was worse, they didn’t want Trump to win, but they needed Harris to make a gesture towards the Arab community before they could endorse her; she didn’t, so they didn’t. She didn’t negotiate to get their endorsement, so she didn’t get their endorsement. It’s very funny that you’re acting like everyone else is an idiot yet you still don’t understand this.
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A perfect analogy where you argue to stay with abusive partner and you are actually a horrible person if you don’t want to stay with your abusive partner. The idea that your partner stops being abusive is also so absurd that it’s out of the question.
Yeah, yeah. People said this leading up to the election to. The plain logic of “we’re getting one of these two” didn’t seem to click with many, you included.
I’m a cis white male who makes pretty damn good money so in all likelihood I’ll be fine. That surely won’t be the case for many. I tried. /shrug
I bet you did wonders with your “stay with your abuser” rhetoric. With clever posters like you, how a could we possibly have lost? But i am happy to read that the election did matter to you anyway.
You can lead a horse to water.
You put this so much better than I ever could have. Thank you for this.
If you live with an abusive spouse, but the house is literally build in an island surrounded by lava, A. Maybe your bargaining position is not that good.
B. Maybe, even if it’s super shitty to live with the abusive, its still better that swim in lava, so you bite the bullet and wait the lava cool down
Yeah, except the Uncommitted leadership didn’t tell their people to, “swim in lava,” (if I’m following this tortured extension of the metaphor correctly). As I said, they opposed Trump, and even warned their supporters that voting third-party would help him, they just didn’t endorse Harris because of her failure to make any of the very small concessions they asked for. She put them in a position where, as political leaders, there was no way they could endorse her without completely destroying their own credibility. If she needed their endorsement that badly, then it sounds like her bargaining position wasn’t that good.
and you say, “If you ever treat me like that again, I will leave you,”
Finish the analogy to better fit this issue. You leave your partner for a MORE abusive partner. Why?
…except they didn’t do that. The Uncommitted movement didn’t leave her for Trump; they didn’t endorse Trump and actively warned their members not to vote third-party because it would help him. They just followed through with their threat to withhold their endorsement. If she needed their help that badly, she should have done something to win that endorsement.
“He at least, at least came and spoke to the Muslims. He heard them and said, ‘OK, I will finish. I will end the war in Middle East,’ even if he didn’t say, you know, a genocide, but he said he will bring peace,” she said. “And that’s what the people wanted to hear, and that’s why he got the votes.”
He’s going to “end it” by rushing it to its conclusion you morons! Holy fuck! 🤦♂️
It kind of proves the point that the DNC should have listened to them instead of plugging their ears and walking past them.
Harris didn’t even have to have any plans, but listening was too hard for them. Will they learn from it or blame others? Let’s find out.
It rather proves how flawed the concept of democracy is. People can’t be expected to make rational decisions. This is why candidates fill their campaigns with lies and cheap rhetoric. Because morons will believe it. Sure we’ll all complain later about how “politicians always lie” but the people wanted that anyway.
Trump didn’t listen to them, and he won their vote. So if anything, this proves they wanted someone more like Trump.
Trump did NOT win their vote. Way more Arabs and Muslims voted for Harris than Trump; CAIR survey reports Trump only got maybe 10% of the vote. Don’t blame us for the Harris campaign’s incredible screwups when they were gifted a reset from Biden and decided to repeat the same failure.
Trump did though. Not advocating for his policies but his campaign interacted with Arab voters a lot more than Harris’s.
Harris/Walz visited Wayne County 12 times. Plus another 3 visits by Biden.
Trump/Vance only visited 8 times.
False. Biden infamously detoured his campaign stops in Michigan this year so he could avoid neighborhoods with Arab-American communities. He visited MICHIGAN often but avoided people and avoided meeting with community leaders. Trump, on the other hand, went to Dearborn and Hamtramack and met the mayor and told a bunch of lies about how he loves the community and wants to help them. The same mayor who Biden snubbed.
Harris had an open opportunity to wipe the slate clean, when she got the nomination the community was clamoring to meet and endorse her and her campaign said no to all of them. Delegates to the DNC wanted to endorse her publicly in hopes of getting their voters to vote for her and her campaign refused to let them do so. Even Trump let someone speak at the RNC. The Biden and Harris campaign created their own problem.
So you are saying that trump connected with Muslim votes more than Harris and Trump visited them even less? So trump had less opportunities to connect to these voters and (pretend to) listen to them. Harris couldn’t outperform trump with the quality of visits?
I agree that Harris and the DNC do have lessons to learn but I don’t think they will. They will continue to blame the voters that they won’t listen to.
Exactly. Trump connected with them better despite fewer visits.
The lesson is that those voters want someone like Trump.
Close. The lesson is voters want to be listened to. You don’t even have to do anything after that. Voters will forget by the next election.
Harris didn’t want to listen, she wanted to go there and tell voters she is better than trump. I agree with that message, but I wasn’t in the audience. Muslims were there. They weren’t listened to at all by Harris. Trump at least said “fine I’ll end the war.” That proves he was listening. Being listened to and heard is enough for most people to go along with you, at least temporarily. Which is what trump needed and worked toward.
As opposed to dragging it out to the same exact conclusion?
Democrats have made it very clear that they’re okay with the final solution as long as its spread out on a long enough timescale
This is the true meaning of incrementalism.
Misner said it was a difficult decision to vote for Trump. He said the point of the Abandon Harris campaign was to punish the Democrats for supporting Israel during its war in Gaza, which the campaigners view as a genocide, and he hopes the Trump campaign will be more willing to negotiate with group leaders.
Vindication feels awful here, honestly.
“I think the biggest problem is that your messaging to Arab Americans can’t just be ‘Trump’s a fascist, Trump is Hitler. Big, scary orange man, vote for me.’ Part of being a part of the American political system is being able to separate yourself from your opponent and lay out a better vision. And she did not do that,” Abdelrahman said.
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Negative messaging works, as much as people like to pretend it doesn’t.
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If you saw a literal fascist openly declaring fascist things, and your response to the milquetoast opposition is “Well, you’re not seperated enough, stylistically”, you’re not much more than a fascist enabler.
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In what fucking way is “Not fascism” not a better vision than “Literal fucking fascism”?
“She could have at least called for a ceasefire,” Khan said. (Harris repeatedly called for a ceasefire during her campaign, including during her Democratic convention speech.)
Ah, it’s just like being on Lemmy!
“Even in politics, humanity should be the first and the foremost thing to to be respected, to be valued, right? And [the] Democratic Party clearly, clearly, for an entire year showed us they do not care about human life,” Khan said. “They do not care about their constituents, how they feel about the massacre.”
Ah, yes, humanity is the first and foremost thing to be respected, which is why LGBT Americans have been served to fascists on a silver platter as a protest vote. Peak humanity.
Harris didn’t call for a ceasefire. She called for both sides to voluntarily stop fighting and negotiate between themselves and that the US/Biden should do absolutely nothing at all to pressure Israel into making that ceasefire happen, while at the same time exerting maximum pressure on Palestinians to just surrender with zero guarantees of food or safety. In fact, she gave speeches that her support of Israel is unshakeable and they’ll give Israel whatever it needs, despite the majority of Americans in polling saying they favor conditioning military aid to Israel and Ukraine. She had a solid year of not just polling data but evidence that Biden’s policy was a failure and not just unpopular, and she just insisted on repeating his mistake. It’s like if a pilot is nosediving a plane and then a new pilot takes over but decides to keep flying exactly the same despite everyone telling to stop.
which is why LGBT Americans have been served to fascists on a silver platter as a protest vote.
If you are queer and have any way out, get out. If you can’t get out, scrub your internet history as clean as you possibly can because they will hunt you down.
God I hate it but there’s going to have to be a new underground railroad for pregnant women and queer and brown people…
“She could have at least called for a ceasefire,” Khan said. (Harris repeatedly called for a ceasefire during her campaign, including during her Democratic convention speech.)
Ah, it’s just like being on Lemmy!
Oh great, this point again. They changed the meaning of the word ceasefire they were using. They tried to coopt the term into a meaningless one, while Muslims meant a ceasefire with actual effort and teeth behind it, meaning some sort of leverage, not the meaningless one of the Biden administration.
Keep in mind that Biden is still President and they completely ignored the letter they sent before about Israel having thirty days to change their human rights violations. So they clearly don’t give a shit even though they don’t even have to worry about reelection anymore so we can’t blame that.
Ah, yes, humanity is the first and foremost thing to be respected, which is why LGBT Americans have been served to fascists on a silver platter as a protest vote. Peak humanity.
You can’t feign outrage about people served on a platter when you did that exact same thing to people undergoing an active genocide. “First they came for the Palestinians, and I ignored them, because they’re not white.” Is that how the poem goes? You were willing to sacrifice an entire ethnic group so you can feel comfortable. Too many Americans were. Now we’re all going to suffer together, and frankly, we’re going to deserve it.
I wish I could upvote your comment more than once.
Gay people aren’t more important than Muslims
Gay people aren’t more important than Muslims
It would seem that they are considerably less important than virtue signaling to Muslims for many voters, yes.
Ah so we all need to respect your views, but when it comes to not wanting to support genocide label it virtue signaling.
Liberals are so pathetic. I’m sure that condescending everyone you meet will win you tons of votes.
You all spend so much time chasing fascist voters and then act so surprised when the fascists are suddenly legitimized by society.
They just do not care about other people, so the suffering of one minority or another isn’t important to them.
Frankly, they were more irritated that these minority groups exist in the first place since they get in the way of whatever political goal they have. It’s like the movie Don’t Look Up, where the president says that this asteroid or comet or whatever is so inconvenient for her because she was going to spend the summer having a political fight over Supreme Court nominations and can’t they just push this extinction-level-event crisis back to another time, like the fall or after the midterms?
What I am not surprised about, at all, is that all the “don’t vote for her” people like yourself (apparently) are now claiming they are not in any way responsible for a fascist getting elected. It’s everyone else’s fault, but the person who literally said to not vote for the only other option than the fascist shares none of the blame.
And if that isn’t you, you’re defending people who share the blame. Which, I would say, falls into the camp of ‘pathetic’ as well.
Oh come on, Harris lost by a larger margin of all the Arab American voters combined. It’s foolish to blame her losing on this one community (who voted for her anyway). The community is suffering and you decide to add insult to this injury, as if we somehow were responsible and not the 70 million Trump voters.
Interesting how you decided I was talking about Muslim-Americans in one post and Arab-Americans in another post even though I was talking about neither group.
Also interesting how you seem to think Arab = Muslim and Muslim = Arab.
Nope. You said “people like yourself” and I was responding to that. You have no idea whether I’m Arab or not, and you may have inferred I’m Muslim because of my name or posting history, but you’re the one treating the groups as the same for this topic.
Nah man, fascism is already here. If you, me, and the rest of the Democrats were willing to tolerate a genocide to keep a system enabling a genocide, then it can’t be denied. We weren’t delaying fascism, we just weren’t the current target of it and because of that, you couldn’t see it. We’re all fucked but it’s because of these exact attitudes that allowed dehumanization to be accepted.
I’m sorry… did you just suggest that queer and brown people deserve to be victims of a genocide because of Democrats?
What, no? Well, as much as you’re saying that Palestinians deserve to be victims of a genocide to protect LGBTQ people. Brown people are already being genocided btw.
Ah so we all need to respect your views, but when it comes to not wanting to support genocide label it virtue signaling.
Not sure what else you’d call selling out queer folk to feel good about yourself.
Not at all. It’s frankly telling that you view this as some sort of zero-sum game, that we must sell out one minority or another. We all succeed or fail together; it’s why Muslim-Americans and LGBT groups have been working together politically for over 20 years. Despite that, it was still shocking to see how many LGBT people immediately tried to abandon Muslim voters because they thought it could help Biden/Harris win in swing states, and still bash them even now after the election. (Even though anti-trans ads played a much bigger role) You’re doing what you criticize others for even here and now.
Hillary already tried this in 2016, throwing Muslim Americans and Arab Americans under the bus in order to boost her votes among conservatives and Republican voters. It failed, and Biden/Harris decided to try it again.
The DNC did that by running shit candidates back to back to back who either couldn’t defeat a blatant, moronic fascist or just barely beat him by the skin of their teeth with the aid of a massive pandemic and economic turmoil fresh in everyone’s mind. They sold out the whole country in favor of maintaining the status quo for their corporate masters and major donors.
I will always condescend to bigots and fascists, and I’m proud to do it. If we don’t “chase” them, they’ll win permanently.
I guess it’s easier to just roll over and pretend the biggest fascist of all is acceptable. That way you don’t have to admit that you made a bad decision, and you can spend the next four years savoring your moral victory and calling people “pathetic”. You’re awesome.
Good news! To the Republicans neither are important and they would gladly see both groups disappear, so a vote for them and a refusal to vote for the Democrats was just support for both Muslim AND LGBTQ+ genocide! Good job everyone!
Good news, genocide is genocide. You’re just upset it might effect you now.
Affect.
And no, it won’t affect me, I’m a white CIS hereto guy living outside the USA.
I hope you sleep comfortably knowing that your protest vote or non vote will result in the death of more Muslims. I guess they’re not important to you either.
What other languages do you speak?
But no, it doesn’t stop with the US, and if it’s not stopped no where will be safe for you either. Mostly cis white men died in the Holocaust.
French is my first language.
I’m not Jewish either, as a baptized Catholic you don’t have to worry, I’m safe, unlike those Muslims and LGBTQ+ and Ukrainians and so many more which you’ve condemned to genocide. Hell, even blacks, Latinos, first Nations and Arabs inside the US are in even more danger than they were because of people who didn’t want to vote for the lesser of two evils or who voted for the Republicans to “teach the Democrats a lesson”.
Well that lesson will be taught at the expense of a whole lot of minorities and foreigners so fuck you, especially since you recognize that you just made the whole fucking world more dangerous for everyone.
Sorry my genocide is finally affecting you, and yes it will affect you.
Hope you stop being a far right lunatic and stop supporting them.
Entirely missing the point, this has to be a troll
Oh hey, the famous .world reason for mass banning of dissent and opposing positions.
Your response was a strawman. No one was saying anyone was more important than anyone else, you just tossed out that nonsense instead of trying to actually participate in a conversation.
You don’t have an opposing position, you just want to be contrarian and make outrageous statemens, which is just a fancy way to say you’re a troll. Maybe it’s famous because a lot of people like you troll and get called out for that nonsense.
But queer people domestically are apparently far less important than Muslims in another country.
But I look forward to the people who told me “there won’t be a genocide of queer people” telling me that the genocide isn’t happening.
They just shut put their hands over their eyes whenever I showed them this after all…
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I never once bashed Muslims. This has nothing to do with Muslims. Stop trying to make it about Muslims.
Of course you are, it’s what your above comment is about, trying to make false associations as if that applies to my community here.
Where did I make it about Muslims? Quote me. The only time I even mentioned them was when I was talking about the “Don’t vote for Kamala” people caring about the genocide of Muslims overseas but not giving a shit about the genocides that were going to hit their doorstep.
It seems I was confusing you with another poster in this thread, and for that I’m sorry. You bashing “people like yourself” was ambiguous as was your comment putting down the needs of Muslims overseas.
Of course, I support the trans community and I think both our communities are about to suffer over the next few years.
Oh not this again, the flying carpet fallacy. Majority of American Muslims support LGBT rights, but that doesn’t matter to you because you’re judging me based on people in another country, who speak a language I don’t. Do you also bash American Christians because Ugandans lynch gays? Or do you bash American Jews because Israelis are terribly rightwing and extremist?
Way to push away your political allies who have been on your side for decades.
What are you even saying? I didn’t say anything about what American Muslims support. I wasn’t even talking about them.
I’m talking about what all the non-Muslims, many of whom never even talked to a Palestinian in their lives, said to not vote for Harris because of genocide, ignoring the fact that Trump was not only even more in favor of genocide of Palestinians than Harris, but also made his plans to implement domestic genocide very clear.
Because the important thing was their own self-righteousness.
Those people are not my political allies. Exactly the opposite. They’re the people who have participated in what is forcing me to flee the country for my queer child’s safety.
Also:
Or do you bash American Jews because Israelis are terribly rightwing and extremist?
You might take a look at my profile and see what communities I moderate and then think about asking me that question again.
It’s known as a rhetorical question. I was giving examples to show how stupid this double standard is, not that I was claiming you are bashing Jews. I can’t see your mod communities on mobile and frankly it’s not relevant.
You don’t have to be Muslim to be appalled by the carnage in Gaza or the rise of rightwing extremism now in charge of a nuclear armed state making aggressive wars on neighbors and oppressing minorities through continuous modern apartheid. Why are you so bent out of shape that this genocide shocked their conscience too? This wasn’t about self righteousness, it was about basic human morality; Biden actually spent his political capital and fought his own party and majority public opinion to accelerate Israel’s violence. He wasn’t just passively complicit but became an active accomplice and tried to make us all part of it by voting to continue it with zero changes or oversight. Browbeating the public to support it or else is not a winning strategy and he has only himself to blame, not any voters you want to castigate. A politician who can’t lead and can’t campaign and can hardly speak coherently in debates or policy discussions should be blamed for losing and not the voters. That’s how normal politics works. “Vote for the party no matter what” is not normal and you shouldn’t blame people for not sinking to your level of amorality or cynicism. You can’t blame Trump voters for ignoring his rape allegations and then get angry that Biden voters are wavering because of his inappropriate behaviors to women or his open support of genocide. It’s a double standard.
And despite this, despite breaking his campaign promises and shunning the community who helped him win last time, the Muslim-American community STILL turned out and majority voted for Democrats as we’ve done for the last 20 years. And we collectively lost anyway but you decided to make yourself feel better by blaming the victims here.
I’m still not talking about Muslim-Americans no matter how much you want me to be. Sorry. If you want to argue with someone about what Muslim-Americans believe, maybe post a topic?
Sorry your support of genocide might now effect you
It’s like the literal progression of the poem and people still act surprised.
I have a long history here on Lemmy. Let’s see if you can find one single comment where I support genocide.
Affect.
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Elabed decided not to vote at the top of the ticket this year and focused instead on downballot races.
Elabed said she feels crushed by the reality of four years of the Trump administration’s policies toward Israel
😑
at the end of the day Democrats had their check writers to think about which is why they intentionally lost
Harris consistently had wins handed to her on gold platters and Harris repeatedly stuck her nose up at the platters
Democrats are not the party of the people or progressives but just Republicans with different coat colors on getting checks from the same places
Is your username a back-formation of Verdana, the font?
no just verdant
BOOoooOoOoTh SiIIiiiIidEs!!!1
You have two choices for ship’s captain.
One wants to paint the interior a color you hate. Like, it’s the worst color you’ve ever seen. And she won’t even listen to you about changing it.
The other wants to run the ship into an iceberg.
Hope you brought a life jacket.
You don’t seem to understand WHY the Trolley problem is so difficult. It’s not a simple matter of “one side is quantitatively better” so you pick it. It means you are actively making the choice to harm people even if you think it’s better in the long run. If you don’t see why people found this choice difficult (and it’s universally agreed upon that one choice is better than the other) then you’re blind to the problem and haven’t actually spoken to voters. Talking down to people that they only can make one choice and that they’re stupid for not making it is not helpful and sets you up for failure next time too.
Talking down to people that they only can make one choice and that they’re stupid for not making it is not helpful and sets you up for failure next time too
I frankly don’t care anymore. I’m done with trying to talk sense to the senseless. If they want to let the five die and justify it to themselves as some “heroic choice” then fuck 'em.
We feel the same way about you. I went to funerals and know grieving families but that’s less important to people like you, willing to sell out your principles with zero red lines. Blue MAGA is not altogether that different than Trump voters in this regard.
You sold your principles to Trump.
And you sold your principles to a politician.
Trump. Is. A. Politician. 😂
You forgot to mention that the current captain is shooting one POC person a day while it heads into an iceberg.
And the first choice for new captain is the current first mate who by all accounts will not change course, and keeps promising to uphold the shoot a POC person a day policy. And you’re acting surprised they’re not getting popular support from that group.
I’m not surprised. People are pretty stupid, little shocks me these days.
Lol ya, but that’s been done on purpose. They’ve been underfunding public institutions, including education, for decades, and trying to privatize it. They have been making university seem like it’s only purpose is as a job-training center instead of also opening your mind and improving critical thinking while making it more expensive. They’ve been spewing propaganda at us the whole time through billionaire-funded news and media while slowly undercutting public broadcasting. It’s all been pretty successful apparently.
That analogy is very flawed and, within the context of Arab voters, crosses the realm of “insensitive” and well into “fucking stupid” territory.
I’ll start with the “very flawed” part. Harris didn’t promise to “paint the interior an ugly color”, she promised to sit and watch while the ship slowly sunk and maybe open a few small holes. She promised stagnation and yet more rightward shifting to people who are being driven closer and closer to poverty every day. Sure, she was better than Trump, but she still had massive policy and attitude flaws that can’t be called “painting the interior a bad color”.
Now for the “fucking stupid” part: Harris was promising to do exactly the same things Biden was doing in Palestine. She promised that and still expected—or thought she could do without—Arab votes. Votes from people who were losing loved ones and attending funerals because of the policy she completely unapologetically promised to continue. Comparing killing her voters’ families to “painting the ship a bad color” is, as I said above, fucking stupid.
That analogy is very flawed
two choices
Nope. Binary race. No other contender has a chance.
promised to sit and watch
Binary race. Pick between the two.
she was better than Trump
Ah! So you get it.
Harris was promising to do exactly the same things Biden was doing in Palestine
Ah! So between the two, neither offers a better plan for meddling in another country’s politics. It’s a tough thing when neither choice for America happens to support that one other country. It’s also then not a discerning factor then, in a binary race, when determining the best of two options.
If you don’t choose, you need to accept what comes down to a coin flip.
Binary race. Pick between the two.
I’m sure that’s what you want, but the Trolley problem actually does offer a third choice. And a significant number of people made that choice, so we could sleep at night. I went to funerals of Gazans killed by Israeli massacres. Do you think I could vote to kill more, based solely on hope against all evidence that it could be better? Harris refused to commit to even lightly pressuring Israel, to recognizing the state of Palestine, to stop blocking votes for Palestinian statehood, to even investigate war crimes. Everyone in north Gaza will be dead before inauguration; that’s on Biden/Harris not Trump. Talking to Palestinians, they saw no difference between Biden and Trump; both armed Israel and blocked each and every UN vote to help Palestinians. Trump cut all refugee aid to Palestinians and Biden continued it. To them, Biden and Trump are just shades apart in terms of actual policy regardless of Trump’s hateful speeches. Biden even fought his own party and majority public opinion to help Israel more and increase weapons shipments without preconditions.
People were making this argument every day before the election and it didn’t work.
Trump was always worse. But Harris still had to win people’s votes. If this argument worked we would have had Hilary in 2016.
You need to actually have something to offer beyond the other side being worse.
This is what blew my mind. I thought this was all obvious, and that people understood there was simply no pro-Palestine option on the table.
Sometimes the available options aren’t what you want, but I also think it better to make non-emotional decisions about candidates where possible.
Turns out a year of nonstop funerals makes it hard to make non-emotional decisions.
Yeah it’s not an easy task
These people are seriously throwing a tantrum because Arab voters didn’t vote for their friends and family to be murdered. This is insane.
Allowing Trump to win was “fucking stupid” for anyone that actually cares about this genocide. Accelerating everything for innocent people from the comfort of your western home - all that matters is your virtue signaling.
If this was a race (which it might me given the state of AI and mass surveillance) you would all immediately smash into a wall thinking the shortest distance is fastest ignoring the reality of the track in front of you. Geopolitics is real.
If I hear this crap one more time I’m going to make the news.
What, you’re going to murder someone in an act of pointless violence? Great call.
Maybe you hear it all the time because it’s the reality. You can just bury your head in the sand harder I guess, that’s an option.
You already have. Mostly in the “people regret their obviously stupid decision” category.
The real reason America deserves to fall to fascism is that you still have bootlickers in this very thread pretending the Harris campaign really did all it could to win, and it was the fault of the mean, nasty leftists online calling out her support for a genocide that got Trump elected.
Nobody is gonna learn a goddamn thing from this election, just like they haven’t for decades. American democracy died before I was born, people are just realizing it now.
People might learn. They might learn that corporate Democrats are worthless. That would be an interesting day.
The Trump campaign went all out with a campaign to offend and alienate, ensure everyone knew he’s unfit to be in charge of getting out of bed. Yet somehow he failed to drive away voters in droves
The sad reality is that Trump actually went to Dearborn and Hamtramack and publicly met with Arab American politicians and promised to make their lives better. He was lying of course and he’s already admitting that less than a month later, but he went to those towns specifically because Biden very publicly snubbed them and this spring he detoured his campaign stops in Michigan to skip them completely because he refused to meet any Arab-American community members or politicians. They’ve been loyal Democratic voters and donors for decades and he just refused to be seen with them, and once Harris took over her campaign also refused to let them endorse her at the DNC and waited until the first week of November for her to even meet any Muslim leaders in Pennsylvania and didn’t even meet with anyone notable.
And people are shocked that Trump made inroads with minorities? This is all on Biden/Harris, they didn’t just ignore the community but it was like they were intentionally throwing insults at it in hopes of seeming cool to Republicans on the fence, and then offering nothing but “fall in line or Trump will win.”
And yet it seems like the opposite
Read the actual articles you posted. Biden snubbed the community and sent an advisor instead. It was the illusion of pretending to care; he frequently hosted Jewish American families in the White House and filled up his social media feed with selfies of Israeli hostage families but couldn’t be bothered to meet any Arab and Muslim families who were affected by his policies. Biden couldn’t even walk back his insult where he told the press he has “zero trust for Palestinians.” (He later privately told people in the White House that he meant to say Hamas but never clarified his remark. And that’s one of many.) When Harris took over, she refused to meet any mainstream Arab or Muslim leaders and the campaign wouldn’t allow her to be photographed next to any until the last week of the campaign and only with local small town religious leaders in PA.
Again, Biden/Harris decided to snub their own party base and try running as a liberal Republican, in hopes of getting Republicans to switch their vote. It’s why Harris campaign wouldn’t let any trans people or Arabs speak at DNC and she avoided talking about things that Democrats wanted, instead saying “vote for us anyway because Trump.” We now see ONCE AGAIN that this strategy fails, as if if 2016 wasn’t proof enough they had to repeat it.
Decades ago the corporatists and oligarchs traded in the currency of societal need and societal trends. Having exploited those markets and needing more, they’ve perfected leveraging societal stupidity. Stupidity is the currency that now powers capitalism.
Removed by mod
Their comment contributed to the discussion. Yours sows discord while contributing nothing. You are the problem here.
And find themselves without fault?
Maybe Harris and the Democrats should’ve spent less time chasing Republicans and fascists for votes.
I voted for her btw. But is incredible how Dem voters repeatedly allow their leadership to be so weak and outt of touch.
And maybe people who repeatedly told others “don’t vote for Harris” should claim some culpability for people not voting for Harris…
But it’s amazing that every time I suggest that, someone has to talk about the faults of the Harris campaign as if you can’t blame more than one party. It’s whataboutism.
If you [general you] tell people not to vote for Harris and they don’t vote for Harris and then Trump wins, you have some culpability.
Those people weren’t running for president. They may be culpable but it’s no where near the same level as the actual party leadership.
Dems conveniently blame everyone but their own leadership every time they lose an election and therefore never learn anything from it.
Cool. I’m not a Democrat and this isn’t about the Democrats. This is about the people who wanted others to not vote for Harris. Stop trying to change the subject.
Who are these people you’re claiming said “don’t vote for Harris?” You and I had plenty of back and fourths before and after the election about what a shit job Biden (and then Harris) was doing campaigning but I never once told anyone who to vote for and I don’t recall anyone else doing that either. You seem to conflate “valid criticism of a candidate and their policies” to “telling you who to vote for” and that just isn’t the case.
You have a very poor memory if you claim you don’t remember anyone saying to not vote for Harris. Considering it’s even mentioned in the headline of this post, a very poor memory indeed.
It’s mentioned in the title in reference to some far-flung group not represented here. I’m talking about here on Lemmy.
not the voters’ job to make themselves buyable
that is all on the candidates
Yes let us hold blameless those who didn’t give enough of a shit to piss on America when it was on fire. Your true colors show here.
You already hold Biden and Harris blameless.
We are not talking about the voters or the candidates here. We are talking about the people telling voters not to vote for someone and then pretending they had no culpability whatsoever when that person loses. Thank you for proving my point.
If they’re telling people not to vote for someone because they’re doing something they can by all accounts stop doing, then it’s still on the candidate.
Yes, I understand both you and Mr. Banana, who went out of his way to constantly tell people not to vote for Harris every single day on Lemmy up through the first day in November, you want to divorce your words from any actual real effect they might have.
It’s very Republican of both of you.
You might have me mistaken for someone else. I went out of my way to get people to vote for her but also knew she was doomed if she kept up her current path because I recognized what happened in 2016 and so kept criticizing her for supporting the genocide. I tried to set up a freaking vote exchange thread to swap votes with people in swing states even and got criticized by people here for even trying. I was trying harder than most people here because I recognized the danger and the patterns, instead of burying my head in the sand. I felt like freaking Cassandra lol.
People told others not to vote Harris because she sucked as a candidate
Not the citizens’ fault billionaires rigged the election again
I see you don’t understand cause and effect.
If you tell someone not to do something and then they don’t do it, you’re part of the cause.
TYpIcAl ShItLiB LoGiC /s
This is America. I’m dumbfounded by the decision making skills we have, collectively.
Pollution, lack of education funding, lots of police, lots of jobs with below living wages, no healthcare
All adds up to what we have now
And again not the voters’ fault we got got sold out for the check writers
