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Some historical background back when Poland was the border nation instead of Ukraine. 1939 anglo-french-soviet negotiations fail to the joy of Hitler. In may Poland was a huge security concern for all of Europe. Hitler wanted to secure it’s eastern flank and Stalin vice-versa, while UK and France struggled to find a way to deliver the promised protection to their ally Poland.
It is easy to blame the URSS for allying Germany, but the fact is Poland would’ve fallen anyways. Famines, political persecution and the Manchuria war had the Soviet Union in a very unstable situation at best. UK and France had little offer to secure Stalin’s left flank. We all now know he needed help there, and a lot of it. Allying the enemy is not a rare course of action at all, only this time backfired spectacularly. Still to this day there is no agreement on why Hitler betrayed it’s ally in that precise time. He did came close to winning the war (and subsequently the world war), but instead it accelerated his demise.1939 was obviously a very uncertain time politically and there is no point in blaming one single country for causing a world war. My point is to compare it to 2025 and realize today is actually as dangerous as it was back then, if not more since now the nuke spice is available in the world wars kitchen.
God, it makes me feel like I’m speaking to toddlers. No, just because the United States does a lot of fucked up shit, does not mean that other countries are perfect, with absolutely no issues. One of them told me the Holodomor never happened, two others told me that the west caused it. It’s just… so weird.
The tankies have a hard time with this meme because without specifying the country, they could have any number of completely contradictory opinions.
Everything the West does is imperialism. Everything the enemies of the west do is not.
It’s very simple for them.
Can you define imperialism?
No one has done more to make NATO more attractive to join than Vladimir Putin.
Wasn’t the “original” (2022) message that they were trying to stop Nazis? That didn’t even make it in the comic.
I believe the argument is it’s OK to kill then because they’re Nazis. It’s almost like when you look at how this logic is executed, you might conclude it’s flawed somehow…
Damn Jew President, he should stop killing Jews! /s
I want to live long enough to see a well-sourced documentary about reasons behind such decision. We know what it ended up being, and that by now it flowered with reasoning models from profit, to counter-defence against the united west, to a revenge narrative of ‘we are already balls deep, can’t stop now’. But I feel that there’s a good place for a movie, that ends just there, on cold 24 Feb night, when the hell gates opened. And the centerpiece are the decision-making, the preparation and media campaigns to muddy the water, the arguments, the denial it’s gonna happen, the corruption and a race to cover it’s traces by the time every system gets to the test, the misinformation that led to guys smelling their own farts. Let it be the Ocean Eleven heist prep part, let it show just how it’s not evil-first - although it’s useful for a counter-narrative - but how cynical, mismanaged, inheretly degraded, plain disfunctional this machine was. To see not a brutal dictatorship, but a gang of protection-racket thugs who thought they could, like Igor of Kiyv (supposedly) to collect twice on same folks, that they thought it should’ve been easy and were fixated on local politics, international standing than on themselves and their own ridiculousness, like Nicolas the 2nd starting the infamous ‘Little victorious war’ with Japan. Not to seed empathy, or wonder what it would be if this campaign wasn’t met with a worthy resistance, but to show the endgame of fascism. That it is the russian world that is to be exported elsewhere. That it is the object of pride to western contrarians, and to the US admin that is running fast to achieve the same. That speech, when the SMO was declared, and everyone nodded, could’ve been a fine ending that leaves the audience speechless and the whole theater unnervingly quiet.
I know my fellow countrymen are nearly unpenetrateable, but I feel like a bootleg of such a movie could’ve made a lot of crimethoughts.
I mean, we know Putin’s primary source of income (and hence his power in the world) is the natural gas he sells to Western Europe via a pipeline running through Ukraine. And we know that significant natural gas reserves were recently discovered in the Donbas region of Ukraine, which despite the overall clusterfuck nature of Russia’s invasion has remained solidly under Russian control since the start of all this. Is it that hard to see this invasion as the successful elimination of a business competitor?
There are a lot of things in play. Another optional goal is to tighten up the local russian backgarden. Just like it was before Crimea snatching, population was rather frustrated with the powerholders, some bigger protests brewed in capital cities, and although they were even smaller than back then pre-Crimea, I see it as a sub-motivation, and them freely killing Navalny just after that, rolling out laws groving in their restrictiveness - I think these were their goals all along.
they want the resources
While I am absolutley against the illegal aggressive war by Russia against Ukraine - this meme is bordering on rewriting history.
We (the west) broke our end of the deal made after the cold war. Rightfully so, one could argue, every people should decide for themself which military organization they want to be part of one could argue, but we can’t be surprised if Russia also breaks its end of the deal.
Is it absolutely Russia’s fault for starting the war? Yes!
Is it illegal and bad what Russia does? Yes!
Is it suprising though and has nothing to do with the west, in their eyes, breaking the deal… No… Not really
We (the west) broke our end of the deal made after the cold war.
The myth of a ‘deal’ that NATO would continue to act as though Eastern Europe was under the thumb of the Warsaw Pact is just that, a myth.
Rightfully so, one could argue, every people should decide for themself which military organization they want to be part of one could argue, but we can’t be surprised if Russia also breaks its end of the deal.
… what end of the deal was that? In this version of the myth, did Russia promise, in exchange, to not invade its neighbors?
Is it suprising though and has nothing to do with the west breaking the deal…… No… Not really
It really doesn’t have anything to do with the West ‘breaking the deal’ - Crimea and the Donbass was seized from Ukraine after they rejected a pro-Russian puppet government back in 2014, and from there, tensions were always going to escalate over Russia invading and occupying Ukrainian land.
“We had to invade Ukraine because Albania joined NATO!” makes no sense, not even as an excuse. Ukrainian NATO aspirations were not serious until after 2014 - at which point NATO membership, completely unexpectedly, became very popular after an invasion by a neighboring state seizing large swathes of Ukrainian land with no legal justification.
The myth of a ‘deal’ that NATO would continue to act as though Eastern Europe was under the thumb of the Warsaw Pact is just that, a myth.
I am not arguing that international law or a treaty was broken with NATO eastward extension, and I don’t argue it was was wrong.
My point is, that Russia clearly communicated they see it this way.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversy_regarding_NATO's_eastward_expansion
… what end of the deal was that? In this version of the myth, did Russia promise, in exchange, to not invade its neighbors?
Not that explicitly, but yes, that’s exactly the story they are telling.
Einerseits war für Gorbatschow eine Vergrößerung der NATO-Zone auf Ostblock-Staaten „inakzeptabel“.[4][5] In einem Telegramm an den französischen Präsidenten vom April 1990 schlug Gorbatschow wiederum eine paneuropäische Sicherheitsarchitektur unter Führung der NATO vor. Im Mai 1990 erwog er sogar eine Mitgliedschaft der Sowjetunion in der NATO.[6] Die Ablehnung einer NATO-Erweiterung auf die mittelosteuropäischen Staaten bzw. vor allem die Ablehnung einer von der Sowjetunion bzw. dann Russland gänzlich unabhängigen freien Bündniswahl dieser Mitgliedsstaaten des sich zum 1. Juli 1991 auflösenden Warschauer Paktes blieb eine Konstante der Außenpolitik der sowjetischen Regierung und Politik bis zum von Hardlinern und Reaktionären versuchten Moskauer Augustputsch 1991." -https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO-Osterweiterung
Should every country just follow Russian agenda and let them control ex east block states? No!
Does this mean it is acceptable in any way for them to start a war? No!
Is it surprising they will act exactly as they said and start a war? Also No…
You can call it a myth, that’s not they point, because even if so, it was a very powerful myth for Russian government they would act on.
My point is not, that this makes up for anything Russia does, it doesn’t, my point is that for them NATOs eastward expansion (along with EU expansion) plays a large role in searching for reasons to act imperialistic. Even if we find that wrong, and a bad reason, which I do, we can’t just pretend it isn’t a major talking point for them and make it undone by pretending it isn’t there.
The point we should be making is why this NATO westward expansion doesn’t excuse starting a war, what their imperialistic interests are that make them use this claim and what our proposed way is of handling things differently is (international law, peacefull Negotiations about security interest, possible peace guarantees, etc.)
My problem with your meme is not, that I believe Russia is right, my problem with your meme is, that it makes it seem like Russia is not using NATO westward expansion a excuse to justify their illegal war to their own population and their international partners, which it absolutely does and has been since decades.
And that Russia starts illegally and forecfully securing control with a country which is not yet in the nato and has exceptional high geopolitical value for them is not so surprising in my opinion either.
I’m not arguing installing puppet governments, invading sovergein nations, occupying their land and slaughtering their people is remotely acceptable or excusable in any way.
I’m saying if some dictators say: we don’t invade old east block states as long as you don’t expand eastwards, then we do exactly that, and they do exactly what they said the would, we can’t act all surprised picachu and act like their actions have nothing to do with ours.
We can choose this conflict, because it is just, because it is the right thing to do, because we believe in the cause of freedom from imperialistic oppression by Russia etc. But we can’t say we couldn’t see that conflict coming and our actions (while the just ones) don’t play any role in it.
Russia invaded Ukraine in 2022 after Russian president Vladimir Putin made false claims that NATO military infrastructure was being built up inside Ukraine and that Ukraine’s potential membership was a threat. Russia’s invasion prompted Finland and Sweden to apply for NATO membership in May 2022.[1] Finland joined in April 2022 and Sweden in March 2024.[2][3][4] Ukraine applied for membership in September 2022 after Russia illegally annexed the country’s southeast.[1] Two other states have informed NATO of their membership aspirations: Bosnia and Herzegovina and Georgia.[5] Kosovo also aspires to join.[6] Joining the alliance is a debated topic in several other European countries outside the alliance, including Armenia, Austria, Cyprus, Ireland, Malta, Moldova, and Serbia.[7][8] -https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlargement_of_NATO
You’re talking in circles here, your only point is that “we should have seen this coming”. Ok? Why bother posting this?
Because the meme makes it seme like someone is superimposing this narrative on Russia, the little girl, which infantising Russia, taking them out of responsibility and distorting history.
This is not the case.
The narrative plays a huge role in the conflict and was pushed by people way back, Gorbachev for example.
In what universe would they admit they didn’t see it that way?
The united states would get pissed if our enemy decided to befriend Canada after we keep spitting on them, but that’s not any of their faults, we just didn’t think anything would ever change. And Canada used to like us, Ukraine has a long history of resisting Russia only to get invaded by them and forced into their sphere of influence. Ukraine wanted to be a separate communist country in the 1910s.
Do you really think Russia feels threatened by an attack of NATO? All Russia wants is having back as much ex-soviet territories as possible and to enlarge its political influence sphere.
Both of these things can be true.
Bear in mind during the Cold War the US almost exchanged nuclear missiles rather than let Russia have an installation in our hemisphere, let alone at our border. I’m sure they’d prefer a buffer. It’s not about fearing an imminent attack, it’s about the capacity to attack in the future. Distance is response time.
But that’s NOT really it. He clearly has designs on claiming territory. If they rolled through Ukraine in a few days as they had planned, they damned sure wouldn’t have stopped there.
Yes, I think western military power DOES play a major role in Russia’s geopolitical/imperialistic strategy. The EU alone has more expenses for military then Russia annually.
I do think Russia wants to
hav[e] back as much ex-soviet territories as possible and to enlarge its political influence sphere.
That’s exactly my point. If western influence grows, Russia pushes back, no matter if ethical or not.
That’s a core part of the conflict not a narrative superimposed on russia by people defending Putin.
The EU alone has more expenses for military then Russia annually
This is often spread, but highly debatable. Russia is in war economy mode and economic numbers published are highly flawed. The Russian government is the only one “customer” buying Russian weaponry in large numbers. Which leads to the aspect, that the military budget of the EU needs to be divided by 27 countries, 4 different aviation systems*, 17 different tanks* and so on. The EU is an economic union, not a military one. Russia on the other side has only very few but centralized weapon systems it needs to support. Comparing the raw numbers of the military budgets does not make sense at all.
If western influence grows, Russia pushes back, no matter if ethical or not.
Countries decide to be democracies and they decide they want to be part of a defense union because they are afraid of their imperialist neighbor in the east. Speaking of western vs Russian influence spheres just feeds the Russian propaganda machine in my opinion.
*I made the numbers the fuck up, but the point still holds
The more aggressive Russia gets, the more attractive NATO membership becomes.
Fuck the Poles, Estonians, and so on who didn’t want to risk living under Moscow‘s boot once again, or what? They can decide themselves who they want to ally with and NATO was where they felt safe. Without EU and NATO, Russia would have taken the Baltic states 20 years ago.
For people like you only world powers matter.
The west did nothing to stop the nazi Poland invasion. Did nothing to stop the Chekoslovakia invasion before, or the Denmark and Norway invasions. Did block anti-fascist assistance to spanish civil war. Did nothing when a still demilitarized pre-nazi Germany fashioned fascist militias as state security officers.
The west literally sat by watching the WWII unfold while eating popcorns until they were kicked out of Dunkirk.
No, I stand firmly with all nations aggressively atacked. Russia is an imperialistic state clearly at fault here taking land, oppressing people and taking lives.
My point is that the meme makes it seem like NATO expansion is a narrative that’s being superimposed to the little girl Russia, who does genocide for the fun of it by someone else.
This is not the case
Its a narrative they themself push since Gorbachev. Putin doesn’t wake up and decides to convert his whole economy to war economics and invading countries for the fun of it. Its a geopolitical/imperialistic struggle for power with the west with a long history.
Haha.
Why don’t you miss some more critical details? 😂
